Why High Performers Fix the Wrong Problems | Tech Executive Keith Butler

00:01:27 –> 00:01:41 Shaun Dyke:
Welcome to In The Arena. My name is Shaun Dyke, Managing Partner with DoorTwo. Joining me today is Keith Butler. Keith, thanks for being here.

00:01:41 –> 00:01:42 Keith Butler:
Hey, thanks for having me.

00:01:42 –> 00:01:54 Shaun Dyke:
You bet. You bet. Now, always when we do these, we got to level set and ground who the heck is Keith Butler? Now, Keith, in title, is the President and Chief Revenue Officer of Observe, Inc., which is an incredible accomplishment in and of itself.

00:01:54 –> 00:01:56 Keith Butler:
. Thank you. .

00:01:56 –> 00:02:05 Shaun Dyke:
And beyond that, for those listening or watching, ground us. Who is, who is Keith? And for those people listening, who are they going to be listening to for the next 45 minutes?

00:02:05 –> 00:02:21 Keith Butler:
Oh, my gosh. I’ve… That’s what I’ve done. I, I, I’m a tech exec. I, I spent, you know, my time selling and building a career in, in, in sales and leadership. And, my- the most fun I’ve had is in, in building small companies-

00:02:21 –> 00:02:21 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm

00:02:21 –> 00:02:26 Keith Butler:
… growing, growing big, bringing, growing value and, and, and growing them up, and-

00:02:26 –> 00:02:27 Shaun Dyke:
There’s a plural on that-

00:02:27 –> 00:02:28 Shaun Dyke:
… companies.

00:02:29 –> 00:02:29 Shaun Dyke:
Nice

00:02:29 –> 00:02:30 Keith Butler:
… done it, done it a few times.

00:02:30 –> 00:02:30 Shaun Dyke:
Nice.

00:02:32 –> 00:02:37 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing] We’re similar, so you know. We both have an appropriate amount of gray in our beard-

00:02:37 –> 00:02:37 Keith Butler:
That’s right

00:02:37 –> 00:02:39 Shaun Dyke:
… that allows us to be in a good spot.

00:02:39 –> 00:02:42 Shaun Dyke:
So, 00:02:42 –> 00:02:44 Shaun Dyke:
Keith, beyond tech expert-

00:02:44 –> 00:02:47 Shaun Dyke:
… where else does the world bring you joy?

00:02:47 –> 00:02:50 Keith Butler:
. Well, I’m a, I’m a Canadian. I love, I love playing hockey-

00:02:50 –> 00:02:50 Shaun Dyke:
Nice

00:02:50 –> 00:02:52 Keith Butler:
… or at least watching hockey.

00:02:52 –> 00:02:52 Shaun Dyke:
Nice.

00:02:52 –> 00:02:55 Keith Butler:
I shouldn’t say playing hockey. My kids will say, “Dad, you don’t play hockey.” [laughing]

00:02:55 –> 00:02:56 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:02:56 –> 00:03:06 Keith Butler:
I’m a parent and a, and a husband, two amazing kids. they’re in college. And,, I’m, I’m a pretty competitive guy. I grew up playing sports, and, 00:03:06 –> 00:03:08 Keith Butler:
I did some triathlons and that kind of stuff to-

00:03:08 –> 00:03:11 Keith Butler:
… to ward off my dragons. We’re going to talk about my dragons.

00:03:11 –> 00:03:12 Shaun Dyke:
We’re going to talk about dragons.

00:03:12 –> 00:03:14 Keith Butler:
Triathlons, another way of getting rid of those things. [laughing]

00:03:14 –> 00:03:20 Shaun Dyke:
We are. I always find when the whole dialogue of anything associated with leadership exists-

00:03:20 –> 00:03:20 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm

00:03:20 –> 00:03:24 Shaun Dyke:
… but you, parenting always comes into the equation, always. Like, the-

00:03:24 –> 00:03:35 Shaun Dyke:
… a lot of the elements that we talk about on leading people, man, self, kids, spouses sometimes don’t necessarily want to be led, but, like, that-

00:03:35 –> 00:03:36 Keith Butler:
No, that’s true

00:03:36 –> 00:03:37 Shaun Dyke:
… that shows up in that space for sure.

00:03:37 –> 00:03:42 Keith Butler:
. Well, when you learn something about yourself, and you real- you reflect on where, where you applied-

00:03:42 –> 00:03:44 Keith Butler:
… error, –

00:03:44 –> 00:03:48 Keith Butler:
… being a parent is, is, this comes, comes up pretty quickly.

00:03:48 –> 00:03:54 Shaun Dyke:
[exhaling], it does. Maybe, maybe even, with a greater degree of resonance than being a leader in a professional context.

00:03:54 –> 00:03:54 Shaun Dyke:
Does that make-

00:03:54 –> 00:03:55 Keith Butler:
Exactly. .

00:03:57 –> 00:03:58 Shaun Dyke:
… couple-

00:03:58 –> 00:03:58 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm

00:03:58 –> 00:04:06 Shaun Dyke:
… in, in building and leading successful businesses and teams, what does the world look like for you right now? What’s the story right now?

00:04:06 –> 00:04:23 Keith Butler:
. Well, Observe’s, doing really, really well. We’re, we’re, we’re growing like crazy, and, and the whole tech industry with AI is, is, is ripping right now. So things are super busy, and, the future is, is bright, and everyone’s pretty excited about over what’s going on at Observe.

00:04:23 –> 00:04:25 Shaun Dyke:
Is your world

00:04:25 –> 00:04:36 Shaun Dyke:
heavier and more complex today than it was maybe when you started this journey X number of years ago, or is it lighter and simpler?

00:04:37 –> 00:04:38 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:04:38 –> 00:04:40 Keith Butler:
I wonder if it’s more complex ’cause I’ve made it so. But, –

00:04:40 –> 00:04:41 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:04:41 –> 00:04:44 Keith Butler:
… but you know, it, the more you know, the more you realize you don’t, maybe, you know?

00:05:01 –> 00:05:11 Shaun Dyke:
You know, one of the core things that we say, every one of our episodes opens with that all growth starts with self-awareness. Do you believe that to be true?

00:05:11 –> 00:05:12 Keith Butler:
I came to believe so, yes.

00:05:12 –> 00:05:12 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:05:12 –> 00:05:14 Keith Butler:
Unfortunately. [laughing]

00:05:14 –> 00:05:16 Shaun Dyke:
It hasn’t always been a truism for you.

00:05:16 –> 00:05:17 Keith Butler:
It has not.

00:05:17 –> 00:05:19 Keith Butler:
I never- I thought I didn’t do anything wrong for the longest time.

00:05:19 –> 00:05:21 Keith Butler:
You know, it was everyone else’s fault.

00:05:21 –> 00:05:22 Shaun Dyke:
Fallacy of perfection, right?

00:05:22 –> 00:05:23 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:05:23 –> 00:05:52 Shaun Dyke:
We, we have it all dialed in. So we hit points… Well, many don’t, but hopefully, along this journey line, anybody that’s listening to us is at least intrigued and interested enough to recognize that if we’re really going to grow, we have to be willing to turn that lens inward. And one of the phrases that you use, that’s going to occupy the vast majority of our discussion today, is this idea of having, recognizing, discovering, and then slaying our internal dragons-

00:05:52 –> 00:05:55 Shaun Dyke:
… which is such a phenomenal metaphor. So

00:05:55 –> 00:06:01 Shaun Dyke:
we’re going to chase it a lot, but do a macro framing for me on what do we mean by dragons?

00:06:01 –> 00:06:22 Keith Butler:
. Well, you work really hard for a long time doing something I did, and, you know, -… you get to a place where you, you seemingly hit this glass ceiling that, that, that I couldn’t see. And, you know, you start- I started questioning, you know, whether this was the right career for me. Is this the right… Am I, am I doing what I’m, what I’m meant to be doing?

00:06:23 –> 00:06:43 Keith Butler:
Thinking that, you know, it’s I am what I am. And, and every i- i- if it’s not, if it can’t- if I can’t change, then, then it must be the external world in some, in some way. and that idea of, of, you know, self-reflection or that it’s actually those, those things that are wrong may be me-

00:06:43 –> 00:06:44 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm

00:06:44 –> 00:06:52 Keith Butler:
… easy to say, and it took me years to kind of really… And I actually continue to grapple with it and, and to take it deeper-

00:06:53 –> 00:07:14 Keith Butler:
… to, to really understand the meaning of that. I’ve had people say things to me like, “You know, in my company, anything that goes wrong is just a reflection of something I did, something I said, of something I implemented,” and I just, you know, to really kind of, like, pull that thread and understand it, that means, like, I’m, I did something?

00:07:14 –> 00:07:15 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:07:15 –> 00:07:16 Keith Butler:
That’s me?

00:07:16 –> 00:07:16 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:07:16 –> 00:07:19 Keith Butler:
Like, how? Like, it’s them.

00:07:24 –> 00:07:33 Shaun Dyke:
potentially take that degree of ownership inside of it ’cause I’m not entirely bought into it might be everything, but it’s sure probably significantly more than we’re willing to take ownership over.

00:07:33 –> 00:07:34 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:07:40 –> 00:07:41 Keith Butler:
[chuckles]

00:07:41 –> 00:07:44 Shaun Dyke:
… walk out that a little bit more for me. What do we mean by, “I am what I am”?

00:07:44 –> 00:07:49 Keith Butler:
Well, so I am… You know, I tend to be a little bit of an introvert.

00:07:49 –> 00:07:49 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:07:49 –> 00:08:12 Keith Butler:
I’m highly competitive. I want to win. In fact, I would say I probably need to win. my family would say I, I, I need to win. When, when I was, like, an individual contributor, a salesperson, most of that was kind of up to me. I could control my own environment, and I could drive it, but as my career developed, I got into leadership, it, it actually started to break.

00:08:13 –> 00:08:33 Keith Butler:
Actually, what I found was, like, what’s wrong with everybody? how come they, how come they can’t grab ahold of this thing and drive it, you know, in my head, like, like me? And, and the more I pushed on it, the worse it got, the worse… And, and, and started so the logical thing was, “Well, maybe I’m just not cut out for this.”

00:08:33 –> 00:08:35 Shaun Dyke:
How old are we in this? Is this five years ago, 20 years ago?

00:08:35 –> 00:08:39 Keith Butler:
Oh, no, th- like, this, let’s call it getting up to 38, something like that-

00:08:39 –> 00:08:39 Shaun Dyke:
Okay, okay

00:08:39 –> 00:08:40 Keith Butler:
… maybe is a guess.

00:08:40 –> 00:08:40 Shaun Dyke:
Good guess.

00:08:40 –> 00:08:55 Shaun Dyke:
Yep, I like it. Some of the things that make us the most successful in our youth, in school, in sports, as an individual contributor, an IC, that asset package

00:08:55 –> 00:09:04 Shaun Dyke:
actually becomes a liability package as we move through that career further, and in that case, to your point, you oftentimes bump into a confrontation.

00:09:04 –> 00:09:14 Shaun Dyke:
“Is this me, something I can shape or do, or is this because I’m gonna occupy the thing we call the four deadly sins: blame, complain, defend, and justify-

00:09:14 –> 00:09:14 Keith Butler:
Right

00:09:14 –> 00:09:16 Shaun Dyke:
… and push it on the external world around me?”

00:09:16 –> 00:09:19 Keith Butler:
. I remember, 00:09:19 –> 00:09:29 Keith Butler:
I was working in a small company. We just got bought by, by a bigger one, and, the first or second week we were with this company, they want me to go to this training session.

00:09:29 –> 00:09:30 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:09:30 –> 00:09:31 Keith Butler:
And I was like, “Oh-”

00:09:31 –> 00:09:31 Shaun Dyke:
This damn training session [chuckles]

00:09:31 –> 00:09:41 Keith Butler:
… “leadership training session. Oh, boy, here we go.” And, and so I go, and, and, you all were there. I met Stephanie.

00:09:41 –> 00:09:41 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:09:41 –> 00:09:50 Keith Butler:
And, she ran me through… We were running through one of your programs, and, the big thing I remember was she held a mirror up to me-

00:09:50 –> 00:09:52 Keith Butler:
… in the way that, you know, she and you all do.

00:09:53 –> 00:09:57 Keith Butler:
And, I was not comfortable with that reflection. [laughing]

00:09:57 –> 00:09:58 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:09:58 –> 00:10:05 Keith Butler:
In fact, I thought the mirror was broken, you know? It cannot be me. [chuckles], which was kind of the start of that journey-

00:10:05 –> 00:10:17 Keith Butler:
… actually, the start of, you know… And, and it took me a while to kind of, like, think about and reflect on and come to the fact that, that’s actually me, and it’s not a terrible thing.

00:10:17 –> 00:10:26 Keith Butler:
There’s a lot of good there, there, but it’s just there’s things I need to work on if I’m gonna take my career to the, to the next level, if I wanna be, if I’d wanna be what I aspire to be.

00:10:29 –> 00:10:33 Shaun Dyke:
There’s so much inside of that, so there’s a couple different things let’s chat about for a second.

00:10:33 –> 00:10:33 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:10:33 –> 00:10:49 Shaun Dyke:
So one is, as you said, holding up the mirror. It’s, it’s one of the things that we tend to try to do, and we encourage leaders in any situation to do, is… Well, in an ideal world, you can hold up mirror for self, so start there.

00:10:49 –> 00:10:53 Shaun Dyke:
And then in an optimal space as well, we have that opportunity to hold up a mirror for somebody else.

00:10:53 –> 00:10:54 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:11:00 –> 00:11:01 Keith Butler:
Okay.

00:11:01 –> 00:11:15 Shaun Dyke:
You know, we were talking about this idea of that all growth starts with self-awareness, and then you had a vantage point on self-awareness, and how others play a role in that, and I think that’s part of what you’re speaking about here.

00:11:15 –> 00:11:23 Keith Butler:
. Let’s, let’s, let’s talk about that. So, like, I came to believe that actually self-awareness to the level… I, I always, if someone asked me, I’d say I’m self-aware.

00:11:23 –> 00:11:24 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:11:24 –> 00:11:26 Keith Butler:
But there’s levels of self-awareness.

00:11:26 –> 00:11:26 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:11:26 –> 00:11:41 Keith Butler:
To be able to, like, see inside, to, like, understand why you’re like you are as you’re kind of speeding through life, I would say is impossible. y- you need third-party intervention-

00:11:41 –> 00:11:45 Keith Butler:
… to kind of really evaluate at that, at that level.

00:11:45 –> 00:11:50 Shaun Dyke:
Can that be spouse? Can that be friend? Can that be… Where does that need to come from?

00:11:50 –> 00:11:52 Keith Butler:
I think it, I, I think it can. For me-

00:11:52 –> 00:11:55 Keith Butler:
… professionally, it was Steph-

00:11:55 –> 00:12:03 Keith Butler:
… who basically started me down this, down this path and kind of became my person that I could reflect with-

00:12:04 –> 00:12:09 Keith Butler:
… all, all the time, i- without emotion, right?

00:12:09 –> 00:12:16 Keith Butler:
It’s kind of like the beautiful thing is it’s like it, it, it’s, she’s there without… She, she’s almost there to judge me.

00:12:17 –> 00:12:18 Shaun Dyke:
… !

00:12:18 –> 00:12:18 Keith Butler:
That’s kind of her-

00:12:18 –> 00:12:19 Shaun Dyke:
And, and judging she’s not having-

00:12:19 –> 00:12:22 Keith Butler:
And if she’s not, she’s not doing her job that I’m actually wanting her to do, right?

00:12:22 –> 00:12:22 Shaun Dyke:
Entirely.

00:12:22 –> 00:12:25 Keith Butler:
So it’s, it’s kind of, like, built into the relationship.

00:12:25 –> 00:12:28 Shaun Dyke:
Yes, and judgment isn’t a negative thing.

00:12:28 –> 00:12:28 Keith Butler:
No!

00:12:28 –> 00:12:44 Shaun Dyke:
Judgment is just like if you were trying to perfect a golf swing, and someone said, “Oh, you’re over-gripping,” or, “You’re,” you know, “you’re rolling your club face in,” or whatever the thing is that you’re doing. They are judging you doing the thing you want to do, and then giving you guidance to do it better. So-

00:12:44 –> 00:12:47 Keith Butler:
Right. If, if you want… If you’re- if you want that.

00:12:47 –> 00:12:48 Shaun Dyke:
You have to choose that.

00:12:48 –> 00:12:48 Keith Butler:
Okay.

00:12:48 –> 00:12:48 Shaun Dyke:
Right?

00:12:48 –> 00:12:52 Keith Butler:
You have to choose you want it, and you choose you want it by how bad you want the outcome.

00:12:52 –> 00:12:55 Keith Butler:
Because the pain involved is not insignificant-

00:12:55 –> 00:12:55 Shaun Dyke:
Yes

00:12:55 –> 00:12:56 Keith Butler:
… I’d say, you know?

00:12:56 –> 00:12:58 Shaun Dyke:
So

00:12:58 –> 00:13:04 Shaun Dyke:
I want to take a step back on something, ’cause I think it’s incredibly worth exploring, this idea of judgment.

00:13:05 –> 00:13:07 Shaun Dyke:, 00:13:07 –> 00:13:34 Shaun Dyke:
as you framed it up with Steph, part of what you said is one of the, the benefits, one of the gifts, one of the… She would not do- be doing her job is if she wasn’t judging. Now, you know this quite well as a senior leader in businesses, as a, as a CEO and senior executive. many of the people that may occupy those circles don’t necessarily want to be judged. They want to be affirmed more than they want to be judged. In fact, most people want to be affirmed more than they want to be judged.

00:13:34 –> 00:13:36 Keith Butler:
Feels good. Mm.

00:13:44 –> 00:13:46 Shaun Dyke:
… that journey a bit?

00:13:46 –> 00:13:49 Keith Butler:
. Well, first of all, I speak from my… I can speak for myself.

00:13:49 –> 00:14:04 Keith Butler:
I, I, I always assume, and maybe, maybe it’s the wrong assumption, that some people are just natural. Some people are just good at leadership, just because they’re born that way. Now, the m- the more, the more senior I get, I realize it’s probably not true. [chuckles]

00:14:04 –> 00:14:04 Shaun Dyke:
Not so much. [chuckles]

00:14:04 –> 00:14:04 Keith Butler:
Not so true.

00:14:04 –> 00:14:04 Shaun Dyke:
Exactly.

00:14:04 –> 00:14:12 Keith Butler:
They just… So, so, and, like, I would say I always believed I loved feedback. I’m-

00:14:12 –> 00:14:12 Shaun Dyke:
Mm

00:14:12 –> 00:14:32 Keith Butler:
… I grew up an athlete. I, I, I want feedback on my technique, and so in my head, I wanted feedback. What I, what I came to realize is when I got it, I had this allergic reaction to it. And, I think it took… When, when the feedback got strong, when the, when the outcome became kind of, like, clear-

00:14:32 –> 00:14:32 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm

00:14:32 –> 00:14:33 Keith Butler:
… like, you have a choice to make-

00:14:34 –> 00:14:37 Keith Butler:
… you either continue to pursue this thing or you don’t.

00:14:38 –> 00:14:44 Keith Butler:
Because whatever’s going on is, is stopping. You, you, you’re left with a choice:, how bad do I want it?

00:14:45 –> 00:14:57 Keith Butler:
And, unconsciously, I guess I chose… I wanted it bad enough that I was willing to go through the pain of being judged, and, and, and setting a goal to try and, to try to fix those things.

00:14:57 –> 00:15:01 Keith Butler:
At least, to point myself in the right direction so I had a chance.

00:15:01 –> 00:15:03 Shaun Dyke:
There’s a, a book called The Last Lecture. Any chance you know it?

00:15:03 –> 00:15:03 Keith Butler:
No, I don’t.

00:15:03 –> 00:15:04 Shaun Dyke:
Randy Pausch.

00:15:04 –> 00:15:04 Keith Butler:
No.

00:15:18 –> 00:15:23 Shaun Dyke:
“And if you want what’s on the other side, you’re gonna find a way through it, around it, under it, in some way, shape, or form.”

00:15:24 –> 00:15:26 Shaun Dyke:
So you now

00:15:26 –> 00:15:28 Shaun Dyke:
seek judgment. You-

00:15:28 –> 00:15:32 Keith Butler:
Well, it’s like, it’s like, I don’t know, Peter Senge’s the, The Fifth Discipline stuff.

00:15:33 –> 00:15:49 Keith Butler:
Right? So in that, in that book, I love the, the, the section on, like… I talk to my, I talk to my team about it all the time. When you want- if you want something, if there’s a vision, so a, a goal you want, you wanna, you want to accomplish, understanding that goal is clear. We’re all pretty good at goal-setting-

00:15:49 –> 00:15:59 Keith Butler:
… as a type A personality. We, we, we can set goals. The harder part is, like, but you gotta know where you are. Like, you gotta know, I think he calls it current reality.

00:15:59 –> 00:15:59 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:15:59 –> 00:16:04 Keith Butler:
You gotta know, like, what your baseline is. Because if you don’t know, know where you are, you don’t know what to fix.

00:16:04 –> 00:16:05 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:16:05 –> 00:16:10 Keith Butler:
And so you start… If you, if you’re delusional about where you are, which is your mirror, you start fixing the wrong things-

00:16:10 –> 00:16:11 Shaun Dyke:
Right

00:16:11 –> 00:16:15 Keith Butler:
… that only lead to frustration, because you’re not getting closer to, to, to your outcome, and you kinda know.

00:16:16 –> 00:16:19 Keith Butler:
Your brain just kinda knows. It makes these maps, I think.

00:16:19 –> 00:16:26 Shaun Dyke:
And then also understand, what percentage of that can I influence and control, and how do I wanna work on me to get there?

00:16:26 –> 00:16:31 Keith Butler:
Right. Well, a- and there’s like… You know, he talks about a tension being built between the goal and the current reality.

00:16:32 –> 00:16:40 Keith Butler:
And there’s a couple ways to relieve the tension. One is to, like, set out one step at a time, getting closer to the vision. The tension goes down. The other one is just change the goal.

00:16:41 –> 00:16:41 Keith Butler:
Right?

00:16:41 –> 00:16:42 Keith Butler:
I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want that anymore.

00:16:43 –> 00:16:44 Keith Butler:
Right? And, and both are okay.

00:16:44 –> 00:16:46 Keith Butler:
I mean, it’s up to you.

00:16:46 –> 00:16:46 Shaun Dyke:
Yep.

00:16:49 –> 00:16:54 Keith Butler:
to release, to release the tension by changing the goal. I wanted the goal bad.

00:16:54 –> 00:16:54 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:16:54 –> 00:17:02 Keith Butler:
And like I said, maybe I needed it, and so therefore, the only path I saw after Steph showed me was to fix the current reality.

00:17:02 –> 00:17:09 Shaun Dyke:
So once you get to that, you now have a choice you need to make, and if I heard you correctly, which I just want you to chase for me-

00:17:09 –> 00:17:09 Keith Butler:, 00:17:09 –> 00:17:17 Shaun Dyke:
… is the choice came from this recognition that I was unwilling to let go of the attainment of that goal.

00:17:17 –> 00:17:17 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:17:17 –> 00:17:20 Shaun Dyke:
And so that compelled you. Is that fair?

00:17:21 –> 00:17:23 Shaun Dyke:
The vast majority of the world has a hard time making that choice.

00:17:23 –> 00:17:24 Keith Butler:
Hmm.

00:17:24 –> 00:17:28 Shaun Dyke:
How did you make the choice? Why did you make the choice?

00:17:28 –> 00:17:30 Keith Butler:
I don’t know. … [chuckles]

00:17:30 –> 00:17:30 Shaun Dyke:
I love that. [chuckles]

00:17:30 –> 00:17:31 Keith Butler:
I don’t really know.

00:17:31 –> 00:17:31 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:17:31 –> 00:17:38 Keith Butler:
I mean, because I wake up in the morning, and it’s what I think about. It’s what keeps me up.

00:17:38 –> 00:17:43 Keith Butler:
It’s like, where do I go with this thing if it’s not that?

00:17:43 –> 00:17:50 Shaun Dyke:
I actually wonder, did you even feel like you had… It was, you had optionality here, or did it feel like that was the only choice?

00:17:50 –> 00:17:52 Keith Butler:
Well, I mean, logically-

00:17:52 –> 00:17:53 Shaun Dyke:
Of course

00:17:53 –> 00:18:11 Keith Butler:
… we have options ob- but, but I didn’t see one that was, that was, that was clear for me. and maybe, and maybe the beauty of, like, actually, once you start down the path of self-reflection and, and, and, and, and trying to get ahold of those dragons, you realize it’s actually not that bad.

00:18:12 –> 00:18:13 Keith Butler:
Y- you get good at it.

00:18:13 –> 00:18:17 Keith Butler:
You get, you get, you get better at kinda listening.

00:18:37 –> 00:18:43 Keith Butler:
You know, I did something different, ’cause I didn’t like that, and I saw a result. And then you kind of start to get addicted to it.

00:18:43 –> 00:18:47 Shaun Dyke:
. What else is possible if I’m able-

00:18:47 –> 00:18:49 Shaun Dyke:
… to turn the lens on myself and adjust into?

00:18:57 –> 00:18:57 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:18:57 –> 00:19:01 Keith Butler:
Okay? and

00:19:01 –> 00:19:03 Keith Butler:
I like, I like being competent.

00:19:03 –> 00:19:23 Keith Butler:
Okay? So I, I, I do a lot of things to be very competent, and, and to do, do them thoughtfully. when someone questions me, I don’t see- hear a question of the deliverable I created or something, I see them questioning me. Okay, that, that’s my initial thing, and I used to just lose it.

00:19:23 –> 00:19:28 Keith Butler:
Just … Right. And then I’d say, “I like feedback.” It’s like, hold on, cowboy. Like- [laughs]

00:19:28 –> 00:19:28 Shaun Dyke:
[laughs]

00:19:28 –> 00:19:38 Keith Butler:
… the feedback is just, you know, it… Right, so so how… So that became the dragon, because there’s a downward spiral in that reaction from me-

00:19:38 –> 00:19:39 Shaun Dyke:
Yes

00:19:39 –> 00:19:43 Keith Butler:
… about something that I did, that actually erodes my chance of getting-

00:19:43 –> 00:19:50 Keith Butler:
… to the goal. The communication dies, trust goes down with people, communication kind of fades.

00:20:04 –> 00:20:04 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm

00:20:04 –> 00:20:09 Shaun Dyke:
… and, they would know the linkage you’re talking to in it as well is that thinker personality type.

00:20:09 –> 00:20:10 Keith Butler:
Right. .

00:20:10 –> 00:20:20 Shaun Dyke:
Where we have this strong desire to be experienced and perceived as competent, and if we’re not being perceived as competent, that invites a defense mechanism-

00:20:20 –> 00:20:20 Keith Butler:
Right

00:20:20 –> 00:20:21 Shaun Dyke:
… that shows up, the dragon-

00:20:21 –> 00:20:21 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm

00:20:21 –> 00:20:23 Shaun Dyke:
… that shows up.

00:20:23 –> 00:20:23 Keith Butler:
There is.

00:20:23 –> 00:20:41 Shaun Dyke:
And that defense mechanism starts firing, that breath gets roaring, the fire comes out, and an unconscious protection of competency of self. Your journey helped you create awareness to the fact that that was happening, and I need to do something about that.

00:20:41 –> 00:20:42 Keith Butler:
That’s right.

00:20:57 –> 00:20:58 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:20:58 –> 00:21:11 Shaun Dyke:
That’s even more challenging to recognize the pattern that I have leveraged, the asset that I have used, is not serving me, and I now need to not only stop that, but I gotta replace it with something else.

00:21:11 –> 00:21:11 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:21:11 –> 00:21:12 Shaun Dyke:
That takes a minute.

00:21:14 –> 00:21:18 Shaun Dyke:
W- where did you begin? What did you start looking toward?

00:21:18 –> 00:21:21 Keith Butler:
I don’t know. little, little bits over time-

00:21:21 –> 00:21:21 Shaun Dyke:
Sure

00:21:22 –> 00:21:31 Keith Butler:
… I think. You know, like, first is, like, the recognition of that feeling. you know, I… Someone told me once, “You know, count to seven before you, you react.”

00:21:31 –> 00:21:32 Shaun Dyke:
[laughs]

00:21:32 –> 00:21:34 Keith Butler:
I almost got it tattooed on my wrist.

00:21:34 –> 00:21:34 Shaun Dyke:
Nice. [chuckles]

00:21:34 –> 00:21:34 Keith Butler:
You know?

00:21:34 –> 00:21:36 Shaun Dyke:
Seven-second pause. [laughs]

00:21:36 –> 00:21:42 Keith Butler:
That’s right. how, you know, how you, how you actually show up act- makes a big, makes a big difference.

00:21:57 –> 00:21:57 Shaun Dyke:
Right

00:21:57 –> 00:22:03 Keith Butler:
… on every- on everything. Okay, so, so but that, that, that comes … It’s almost it c- feels like a protection.

00:22:03 –> 00:22:04 Shaun Dyke:
Yes.

00:22:04 –> 00:22:19 Keith Butler:
Okay? But, you know, Steph and I worked on just, like, using my, allowing my gut, my intuition, the thing I’ve developed over all these years in my career, to actually like, stop thinking, and, and just … and start, and start to kind of get the feet moving-

00:22:19 –> 00:22:31 Keith Butler:
… and, and move in the right direction. that’s a skill that, like, I had to practice and learn, and if I get under pressure, if I get tired, I kind of start to fall back.

00:22:32 –> 00:22:35 Keith Butler:
So it’s just like, for me, just learning all these little things-

00:22:35 –> 00:22:36 Shaun Dyke:
Yes

00:22:36 –> 00:22:40 Keith Butler:
… that kind of all accumulate to, I hope, a better way of, of executing.

00:22:40 –> 00:22:50 Shaun Dyke:
. The indecision paralysis that, or decision paralysis that can get, present when we’re trying to make the right decision or do things correctly, where we get tied up.

00:22:50 –> 00:22:52 Keith Butler:
Because I don’t wanna be judged as incompetent-

00:22:52 –> 00:22:53 Shaun Dyke:
Yes. .

00:22:53 –> 00:22:54 Keith Butler:
… so there, I gotta be right.

00:22:54 –> 00:22:55 Keith Butler:
But I don’t really gotta be right.

00:22:55 –> 00:22:55 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:22:55 –> 00:22:57 Keith Butler:
Sometimes I just gotta move fast.

00:22:57 –> 00:22:58 Shaun Dyke:
Yes. Yes.

00:22:58 –> 00:22:58 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:23:04 –> 00:23:04 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm

00:23:04 –> 00:23:31 Shaun Dyke:
… right? Where we associate our self-worth with them, they, whomever them or they is, and their judgment on us in some way, shape, or form, and how authentically debilitating that can be in a variety of ways when we, when we give stewardship of our state over to those around us. That’s a dangerous place to pay, play, yet you’re never fully gonna get rid of that.

00:23:31 –> 00:23:31 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:23:31 –> 00:23:52 Shaun Dyke:
People’s vantage points and opinions, they matter, and they should matter, especially people in close in our circle and what we do. So something you and I talked a little about before, just before we flipped on cameras as well, was, I’d asked you, is there sort of a taxonomy of dragons? Are there those that are

00:23:52 –> 00:24:07 Shaun Dyke:
slay-worthy, they need to be exiled from the city? Are there those that you would say need to be befriended, that it’s not about total removal of them, but it’s knowing about how to domesticate them?

00:24:07 –> 00:24:19 Keith Butler:
Absolutely. I think, you know, there are… Not to put an analogy on top of analogy, but like, they’re like ceilings. They’re glass ceilings. You can’t see them, the, the, the dragons. Some of them, like, some of them you need to break through.

00:24:19 –> 00:24:19 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:24:19 –> 00:24:23 Keith Butler:
Some of them you need to, you need to kind of figure out how to live, how to live within.

00:24:26 –> 00:24:50 Shaun Dyke:
. My example that I would always I give in those kind of situations is-… if I have a really overdeveloped sense of insecurity, that is just holding me back from the things that I’m doing, I’m massively conflict avoidant. I am so averse to situations that can create discomfort, that insecurity is, is probably slay-worthy.

00:24:50 –> 00:25:02 Shaun Dyke:
On the flip side, if I have this tendency to be, an overachiever, and I really have this strong achievement drive, well, we don’t wanna eradicate that. You don’t wanna slay that one.

00:25:02 –> 00:25:03 Keith Butler:
No.

00:25:03 –> 00:25:21 Shaun Dyke:
But we do need to domesticate it. We need to help understand, like, it’s, it’s operating a little out of control. Like, we- let’s figure out how to rein that thing in a little bit. And to your point, I actually like the analogy of it’s a, it’s a bit of a glass ceiling because it also makes it really difficult for us to see it-

00:25:21 –> 00:25:21 Keith Butler:
Right

00:25:21 –> 00:25:33 Shaun Dyke:
… which ties back into that space of sometimes we, we do need others to help us, hold up a mirror for us, and give us some visibility to the thing that we may not be seeing in it.

00:25:33 –> 00:25:50 Keith Butler:
Again, just one on that one is like, okay, so an example of one that doesn’t need to be slayed but needs to be tamed is like… Okay, so because, I’m a thinker in your terminology, I, I create pretty good deliverables. I, I kind of, 00:25:50 –> 00:25:56 Keith Butler:
I have typically good thought. I can teach.

00:25:57 –> 00:26:18 Keith Butler:
Okay. However, the downside of that is sometimes I’m reluctant to kind of, like, show up with, with, with a lot of, with a lot of power. and so, like, I had to kind of like, “Okay, that… Those things are true,” right? tho- those are true about me, but what can I do? One thing I figured out how to do is I, I, I, I, I really worked on storytelling-

00:26:18 –> 00:26:18 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm

00:26:18 –> 00:26:25 Keith Butler:
… so that, like, I could take this competence and turn it into a story that I could kind of tell and engage a room in-

00:26:25 –> 00:26:28 Keith Butler:
… that, that was kind of all me.

00:26:28 –> 00:26:28 Shaun Dyke:
Huh.

00:26:28 –> 00:26:29 Keith Butler:
It wasn’t bullshit.

00:26:29 –> 00:26:29 Keith Butler:
It was all me.

00:26:29 –> 00:26:30 Shaun Dyke:
Real, authentically you.

00:26:30 –> 00:26:31 Keith Butler:
It was real me.

00:26:31 –> 00:26:31 Shaun Dyke:
Yep.

00:26:31 –> 00:26:36 Keith Butler:
And I was consciously using influence-

00:26:36 –> 00:26:36 Shaun Dyke:
Yes

00:26:36 –> 00:26:40 Keith Butler:
… to, to do something that didn’t, that wasn’t totally natural for me.

00:26:43 –> 00:26:43 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:26:52 –> 00:26:52 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:26:52 –> 00:26:58 Shaun Dyke:
And I think that what w- we have found in a lot of our work is that

00:26:58 –> 00:27:09 Shaun Dyke:
it’s not uncommon for someone to be able to come to us and say, “Hey,” in their words, “I have a dragon. I’m not exactly sure what to do about it. I don’t know what to do about it.”

00:27:09 –> 00:27:09 Keith Butler:
Yep.

00:27:09 –> 00:27:11 Shaun Dyke:, 00:27:11 –> 00:27:33 Shaun Dyke:
once I become aware of it, man, do I have the self-control, desire, discipline, need- we talked about need before as well- to actually put the effort toward working through it? What I heard you say, and what I would support entirely, is one of the coolest parts about it is when you apply something and an outcome shifts-

00:27:33 –> 00:27:38 Shaun Dyke:
… you can, to your point, almost get a little addicted to, “Oh, my gosh-

00:27:38 –> 00:27:38 Keith Butler:
That’s cool

00:27:38 –> 00:27:39 Shaun Dyke:
… what else didn’t I know?”

00:27:39 –> 00:27:39 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:27:39 –> 00:28:05 Shaun Dyke:
“That I can be doing and moving myself toward that?” And awareness of that often comes with supportive ins-, supportive entities around us. Working your way through it, talk to me about, like, support. You’ve talked about Steph as a great piece of support. Did you rely on significant others, kids, other systems to help give you feedback or guide you in shaping that?

00:28:05 –> 00:28:09 Keith Butler:
Well, my… Well, first, my family gives me lots of, lots of feedback. [chuckles]

00:28:09 –> 00:28:12 Shaun Dyke:
Unsolicited feedback, don’t they? [chuckles]

00:28:12 –> 00:28:12 Keith Butler:
Unsolicited. [chuckles]

00:28:12 –> 00:28:12 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:28:12 –> 00:28:13 Keith Butler:
When I really don’t want it-

00:28:14 –> 00:28:15 Keith Butler:
… I really don’t want it.

00:28:15 –> 00:28:15 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:28:15 –> 00:28:18 Keith Butler:
But, but it’s important-

00:28:18 –> 00:28:23 Keith Butler:
… important, important critical feedback. Even, like, the feedback of sticking with me through all of this-

00:28:23 –> 00:28:25 Keith Butler:
… is, is important feedback unto-

00:28:25 –> 00:28:40 Keith Butler:
… unto itself. One thing I learned was, like, you know, I’m a working process, and my team at work has to be okay with working through those things with me as a- as, as I’m doing them.

00:28:40 –> 00:28:57 Keith Butler:
And, and, I found, you know, being upfront about it, being on a journey together actually helps. It makes it okay, not when… You know, if I do, if I do something, sometimes I will recognize and say, “Hey, I, I think I just, I did this,” or they will say, “Hey, Keith-

00:28:57 –> 00:28:58 Shaun Dyke:
“Heads up.”

00:28:58 –> 00:28:58 Keith Butler:
… come on.”

00:28:59 –> 00:28:59 Keith Butler:
Right?

00:28:59 –> 00:29:00 Shaun Dyke:
You’re doing that thing you do.

00:29:00 –> 00:29:00 Keith Butler:
You’re doing that thing.

00:29:00 –> 00:29:02 Keith Butler:
I’m like, “, okay. You’re right.”

00:29:02 –> 00:29:07 Keith Butler:
And in the moment, sometimes I’m like, “This is not the moment I’m really feeling f- like feedback.” But, you know, you, –

00:29:07 –> 00:29:07 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:29:07 –> 00:29:09 Keith Butler:
… y- you, you, you try-

00:29:09 –> 00:29:37 Keith Butler:
… and, and come to it, come to it after. So, I’d say, like, it takes a village, and you somehow surround yourself with people that are willing to put up with you as you go through, and maybe they see something there that, that they can’t get, a- and, and maybe think that you can help them, and they’re willing to put up with it long enough for you to figure it out. And I’m blessed to say that, like, I, I have people around me that-

00:29:37 –> 00:29:38 Shaun Dyke:
You have that.

00:29:38 –> 00:29:41 Shaun Dyke:
Recruiting those fellow dragon slayers in that process-

00:29:41 –> 00:29:41 Shaun Dyke:
… for sure.

00:29:41 –> 00:29:43 Keith Butler:
Recruiting a family and-

00:29:43 –> 00:29:47 Keith Butler:
… a coach and a CEO and a team that’s willing to put up with me.

00:29:47 –> 00:29:58 Shaun Dyke:
So is there, is there a daily or weekly practice that you pause and reflect and look at where you are in contrast to where you want to be?

00:29:58 –> 00:30:11 Keith Butler:
So one thing I, I started doing over time, I don’t know when, was, you know, as I’m going through my day, I just- after the meeting, I, I just have quick couple quick questions for myself. Did I, did I add there, or did I, did I, did I make it worse?

00:30:11 –> 00:30:11 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:30:11 –> 00:30:19 Keith Butler:
Did I, did I make the thing better that I was trying to do, or did, did I make it worse? Did, did I add to that person’s, 00:30:19 –> 00:30:21 Keith Butler:
you know, to their day, or did I, did I, did I take away from it?

00:30:21 –> 00:30:22 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:30:33 –> 00:30:46 Keith Butler:
So I, I find it really helpful to kind of, like, just think about-… this on an ongoing basis, kind of almost one interaction at a time. Am I achieving the little goal I set to achieve, or even if I didn’t set one, am I- did I, did I make a positive input there?

00:30:47 –> 00:30:53 Keith Butler:
And, and self, and self-adjusting, and sometimes I’m on a roll. Some days I’m just like, “Great. Boom, boom. Great, great. Let’s keep them coming.”

00:30:53 –> 00:30:54 Keith Butler:
“Let’s keep it going-

00:30:54 –> 00:30:55 Keith Butler:
… ’cause I feel like I could go all day.”

00:30:55 –> 00:30:56 Shaun Dyke:
Set them up, knock them down. Right.

00:30:56 –> 00:31:04 Keith Butler:
Set them up, knock them down. I think that’s, for me, the most kind of immediate ele-, level of feedback that, that I get.

00:31:11 –> 00:31:12 Keith Butler:
Hmm.

00:31:12 –> 00:31:42 Shaun Dyke:
It is, it is sequentially, incrementally evolving and moving for it, and so, you know, I have this note to ask you about, and then it’s kind of funny, like, I have life after the dragon. Like, it’s this curiosity on like, well, what does transformation look like? And, and as I’m thinking about that, well, it really doesn’t happen that way, does it? It’s not like all of a sudden, the dragon’s gone, and we’ve transformed. What would be apparent about you in the way they experience you today than they might have pre-mirror?

00:31:42 –> 00:31:49 Keith Butler:
Well, I was… As I was sitting here, I was thinking, imagine people who worked for me or with me 10 years ago watching this going, [laughing] “What the fuck is that guy?” [laughing]

00:31:49 –> 00:31:51 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing] That’s not who he is. That guy’s an ass!

00:31:51 –> 00:31:53 Keith Butler:
“What’s he talking about?” You know? [laughing]

00:31:53 –> 00:31:54 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:31:57 –> 00:32:00 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing] It’s sorry, my- my bad. Took a minute, and had to, you know-

00:32:01 –> 00:32:02 Shaun Dyke:
I was learning. I was learning.

00:32:02 –> 00:32:03 Shaun Dyke:
Thank you for helping me learn.

00:32:03 –> 00:32:21 Keith Butler:
That’s right. I don’t know how, how I, how I show up. I, I, I, I try to be… I, I guess one way is, I learned through this thing to, to try to listen for understanding versus, like, the confirmation of the thing I already-

00:32:21 –> 00:32:23 Keith Butler:
… have decided I know.

00:32:23 –> 00:32:23 Shaun Dyke:
Yep.

00:32:23 –> 00:32:26 Keith Butler:
And I think I show up better when I’m in that place-

00:32:26 –> 00:32:26 Shaun Dyke:
Mm

00:32:26 –> 00:32:27 Keith Butler:
… and I do it more often.

00:32:27 –> 00:32:27 Shaun Dyke:
Yep.

00:32:30 –> 00:32:30 Shaun Dyke:
Huge.

00:32:30 –> 00:32:33 Keith Butler:, 00:32:33 –> 00:32:40 Keith Butler:
I don’t know. I, I, I hope… I have a highly effective team, and, at least we believe we are.

00:32:40 –> 00:32:41 Shaun Dyke:
Sure.

00:32:47 –> 00:32:47 Shaun Dyke:
Strong indicator.

00:32:49 –> 00:33:05 Keith Butler:
And the people- I’d say the, the people on, the people around me are, are achieving amazing things, and although, you know, I’m just setting the environment for them to do it, I feel like they’re doing the best work of their lives, and that’s, y- you know, that’s, that’s, that’s really cool.

00:33:05 –> 00:33:09 Shaun Dyke:
Sure. And, Stephanie told me you don’t celebrate that well, so-

00:33:09 –> 00:33:09 Keith Butler:
I don’t

00:33:09 –> 00:33:10 Shaun Dyke:
… make sure. .

00:33:10 –> 00:33:10 Keith Butler:
. [laughing]

00:33:12 –> 00:33:12 Keith Butler:
That’s right.

00:33:12 –> 00:33:14 Shaun Dyke:
Knowing, the- to take that win-

00:33:14 –> 00:33:47 Shaun Dyke:
… I mean, because that does. I mean, A, the awareness of it, the effort in it, the, confrontation of self, l- looking at that mirror on a daily basis and moving in the direction of it. You started talking about a little bit, and so the last thing that I wanted to focus you on for a second is, y- look, it’s one thing to hold that mirror up for self or have a mirror held up for self and work on it, but one of the gifts, responsibilities, burdens that we have as a leader is helping those around us recognize that they, too, have some dragons that they’re with.

00:33:47 –> 00:33:56 Shaun Dyke:
How… Have you, have you started walking at that, and approaching that, and trying to help others see it, and how’s that working out?

00:33:56 –> 00:34:06 Keith Butler:
. Well, I- one way of looking at this is like you actually get good at the process of self-evaluation more than the evaluation of the thing you’re evaluating.

00:34:06 –> 00:34:06 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:34:06 –> 00:34:16 Keith Butler:
So like, you kind of recognize the pattern of, of self-evaluation, and, and I always say, once you, once you turn a light on in a dark room, like, for me, I can’t turn it off.

00:34:16 –> 00:34:17 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing] Nice.

00:34:17 –> 00:34:21 Keith Butler:
So once I started evaluating myself, I became very good at evaluating others.

00:34:28 –> 00:34:30 Keith Butler:
… years trying to figure out for myself.

00:34:30 –> 00:34:30 Shaun Dyke:
Right.

00:34:30 –> 00:34:31 Keith Butler:
It’s like, “Dude, come on.”

00:34:31 –> 00:34:31 Shaun Dyke:
[exhaling]

00:34:31 –> 00:34:40 Keith Butler:
“This person is early in their career and working,” and, and, like, it just, you know, I had to… I still, I have to, okay, you know, this is the meet them where they are type of thing-

00:34:40 –> 00:34:46 Keith Butler:
… and try to, but that, that’s hard in this because these things come in frustration. They come in in tension.

00:34:46 –> 00:34:51 Keith Butler:
They come when things are hot and, and so on. So that’s good, but, you know, 00:34:51 –> 00:35:15 Keith Butler:, so I, I think I’ve gotten better, and better, and better at, you know, holding mirrors up for people. And, you know, when you see something, y- when someone wants something so bad, they want it maybe as bad as, as I want it, and they’re not getting it, you know, and you can see the, the, the, the ceiling, the, the glass ceiling or their dragon sitting in front of them-

00:35:17 –> 00:35:18 Keith Butler:
I can see it.

00:35:18 –> 00:35:22 Keith Butler:
You see it, and you s- and I… If it wasn’t there, I know, I know how amazing-

00:35:22 –> 00:35:23 Keith Butler:
… it can be for them.

00:35:27 –> 00:35:28 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:35:28 –> 00:35:32 Keith Butler:
“Oh, they didn’t want to see that. That was not a, that- [laughing] I either executed that terribly-

00:35:32 –> 00:35:32 Shaun Dyke:
[laughing]

00:35:32 –> 00:35:34 Keith Butler:
… or they’re indeed, they were not ready, ready for-

00:35:34 –> 00:35:35 Keith Butler:
… for that mirror.”

00:35:36 –> 00:35:43 Keith Butler:
And, and that, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s a learning. How to, how to do that, I mean, you guys, this is what you guys do.

00:35:43 –> 00:35:45 Keith Butler:
S- you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a work in process for me-

00:35:45 –> 00:36:01 Keith Butler:
… but, like, that’s you. So you know, it’s… I think the first thing is, how bad do you… I always go back to, how bad do you want it? and I’ve worked with some amazing people that want it so bad, they’re willing to go down that journey, and the change they make is, like, remarkable.

00:36:01 –> 00:36:02 Shaun Dyke:
Mm-hmm.

00:36:02 –> 00:36:16 Keith Butler:
And, and they, and they should be super proud, and others, you know, you show them. They can’t make the change. They don’t wanna make the change. They’re not ready, and they run away, and sometimes they really run away, and, 00:36:16 –> 00:36:17 Keith Butler:
I guess that’s life.

00:36:18 –> 00:36:27 Keith Butler:
You know, and you start to… I start to look at, like, “Who wants to go on this journey? Who wants to go on this journey with me? I’m trying to improve me.

00:36:27 –> 00:36:38 Keith Butler:
Are you ready to try, try to take that to the next level with yourself? Because that’s how we’re both gonna grow,” and, and I love that. That’s real, you know? It’s real feedback.

00:36:38 –> 00:36:40 Shaun Dyke:
Not much needs to be said for that one.

00:36:40 –> 00:36:40 Keith Butler:
[laughing]

00:36:40 –> 00:36:41 Shaun Dyke:
That’s, that’s incredible.

00:36:41 –> 00:36:43 Shaun Dyke:, 00:36:43 –> 00:36:48 Shaun Dyke:
one of the things that used to just drive me batty-… was

00:36:48 –> 00:36:51 Shaun Dyke:
people’s unwillingness to allow people to learn.

00:36:51 –> 00:36:59 Shaun Dyke:
Why is it, it’s you, you know, 24-year-old marketing associate, you don’t have the learned experience that I do as a 51-year-old?

00:36:59 –> 00:37:00 Keith Butler:
Mm-hmm.

00:37:00 –> 00:37:19 Shaun Dyke:
We- you had- we have to allow them to go through that journey. And to your point, I will absolutely tell you it is my experience, it’s Steph’s experience, it’s your experience, it’s anybody in our firm’s experience, where one of the incredible blessings about focusing on this is you, you do increase your ability to see the dragons, those glass ceilings floating around people.

00:37:19 –> 00:37:20 Keith Butler:
Oh.

00:37:20 –> 00:37:25 Shaun Dyke:
And the challenge is sitting with them, ’cause it takes time.

00:37:25 –> 00:37:25 Keith Butler:
Takes time.

00:37:25 –> 00:37:30 Shaun Dyke:
We don’t get to slay them, and you can’t slay them for them. They have to slay their own.

00:37:30 –> 00:37:30 Keith Butler:
Right.

00:37:30 –> 00:37:57 Shaun Dyke:
And helping them create exposure, awareness, supporting them, daily rituals and routines that reinforce those need states, and then doing probably one of the most powerful things that you talked about, that I didn’t want to gloss over, that is, being vulnerable enough to acknowledge that you’re also working through it, growing, figuring it out. It creates space for those around you to acknowledge it as well, even as difficult as it is.

00:37:58 –> 00:38:06 Shaun Dyke:
‘Cause you know, the, the 26-year-old man you probably wasn’t all that willing to sit in a training class and hear about the fluffy stuff-

00:38:06 –> 00:38:06 Keith Butler:
Right

00:38:06 –> 00:38:06 Shaun Dyke:
… as people call it. [chuckles]

00:38:07 –> 00:38:22 Keith Butler:
Well, and I will say, like, I am amazed at our young leaders, like, you know, th- their capacity for this stuff, like, 15 years before I was ready for it. Like, sometimes I’m like, “How old are you? You’re 33-

00:38:22 –> 00:38:23 Shaun Dyke:
[chuckles]

00:38:23 –> 00:38:25 Keith Butler:
… and you know that about yourself already? That is incredible.”

00:38:26 –> 00:38:42 Keith Butler:
And I, I, I actually, I feel very strongly about, about that, that, like, their ability to, to be self-aware, and their openness to do it, and to put in the work to get there at a much earlier age than I was, I was able to maybe, is, is, is pretty remarkable.

00:38:42 –> 00:38:45 Shaun Dyke:
Incredible with it. I don’t know that… Man, it’s, that’s a-

00:38:45 –> 00:38:47 Keith Butler:
Is that a thing, like, that you see across the board?

00:38:47 –> 00:38:50 Shaun Dyke:
It’s what I was going to speak to, and that’s probably a whole episode in and of itself-

00:38:50 –> 00:39:00 Shaun Dyke:
… where it almost feels like there’s an extreme polarity in this, where if you want to improve self these days, 00:39:00 –> 00:39:33 Shaun Dyke:, sound like an old guy saying that. But if you want to improve self, access to the ability to be better through a myriad of resources, there’s just a plethora of them. So if you’re struggling or navigating through something, y- you can query all kinds of data sources to learn more. So I think we see those folks that do have that penchant toward learning and self-improvement, and want to do better on those things, that m- they, they have it, it’s there. At the same time, your ability to reinforce your own echo chamber has probably never been stronger either.

00:39:33 –> 00:39:33 Keith Butler:
Mm, true.

00:39:33 –> 00:40:05 Shaun Dyke:
So if you don’t want to do that, and you want to blame the world on some other system or reason or person, the rage machine, in some way, shape, or form, man, you can do that as well. and there’s some work around, or the arrested development of self-awareness, because societally, things just work different now in the way we interact, and so there are more reinforcement mechanisms to stop you from growing. So man, I would say we see a polarity in those two things.

00:40:05 –> 00:40:05 Keith Butler:
I see.

00:40:05 –> 00:40:13 Shaun Dyke:
If you want to learn and grow, it’s accessible to you at a rate more than it’s ever been, and if you don’t, you can also bury your head if you want to.

00:40:37 –> 00:40:37 Shaun Dyke:
Oh, 00:40:37 –> 00:40:39 Keith Butler:
… when they get to me? It’s gonna be incredible.

00:40:39 –> 00:40:40 Shaun Dyke:
And it begins with a willingness-

00:40:40 –> 00:40:40 Keith Butler:
A willingness

00:40:40 –> 00:40:42 Shaun Dyke:
… of even going to look at it. And so actually, that’s-

00:40:42 –> 00:40:42 Keith Butler:
Mm

00:40:42 –> 00:40:55 Shaun Dyke:
… I think the last question I wanted to ask around this was, I guess, first, wanted to, again, say authentically, thank you. Flew out here, hanging out with us, spending the time, really appreciate it. I know Observe is doing some incredible things right now, and it’s not like you’re not a busy man at this moment.

00:40:55 –> 00:40:58 Keith Butler:
. I really appreciate it. It’s important to me, so thank you.

00:40:58 –> 00:41:13 Shaun Dyke:
Yes, and the willingness to really, share your insights and perspectives on it. And so last ask I’m gonna have for you, so you can think on if you want to here, is somebody’s listening. They suspect they have a dragon. What’s the first thing they do?

00:41:13 –> 00:41:16 Keith Butler:
Well, [clears throat] let’s start with assuming that you have one.

00:41:17 –> 00:41:17 Keith Butler:
–

00:41:17 –> 00:41:17 Shaun Dyke:
‘Cause you probably do.

00:41:17 –> 00:41:20 Keith Butler:
Even if, and if you don’t know it, then you just don’t know it’s there.

00:41:20 –> 00:41:26 Keith Butler:
‘Cause I would think that everyone can… You know, everyone can always get better, and probably leaps and bounds better.

00:41:27 –> 00:41:58 Keith Butler:
I would say figure out a, someone to hold up a mirror for you. H- how, how are you gonna get real feedback? And I would say from science or from, from, from research, or from some, from some grounded truth versus an emotional opinion, which can be dangerous. If the, the, if, if the current reality’s painted wrong, then your map is gonna be very different. So you gotta be super careful about who you allow to kind of give you this-

00:41:58 –> 00:41:58 Shaun Dyke:
Yes

00:41:58 –> 00:41:58 Keith Butler:
… type of feedback.

00:41:58 –> 00:42:00 Shaun Dyke:
Back to the saying I pace.

00:42:00 –> 00:42:01 Keith Butler:
Ba- right, that’s right.

00:42:01 –> 00:42:03 Shaun Dyke:
If we start from the wrong place-

00:42:03 –> 00:42:25 Keith Butler:
Start from the wrong place, we’re gonna go in the wrong direction. I would say that, and then there’s just, like, some f- some fundamental kind of like pillars that I, that I lean on. I mentioned one, like, you know, just listen to understand, versus listen with, with all kinds of the, of the judgment. Things like, things like that, you can read in, in popular writing.

00:42:25 –> 00:42:25 Shaun Dyke:
Sure.

00:42:25 –> 00:42:28 Keith Butler:
Like, there’s infinite access to-

00:42:28 –> 00:42:35 Keith Butler:
… information, and like, be a sponge in just learning, and, and you’ll start to put the puzzle together.

00:42:35 –> 00:42:41 Shaun Dyke:
Love it. Keith, deep, authentic appreciation for it. Looking forward to what happens next in your world-

00:42:41 –> 00:42:42 Keith Butler:, 00:42:42 –> 00:42:46 Shaun Dyke:
… and, bumping into each other in life as we continue. So appreciate the growth journey.

00:42:46 –> 00:42:46 Keith Butler:
Thanks, man.

00:42:46 –> 00:42:48 Shaun Dyke:
Incredibly glad you and Stephanie found one another, and, –

00:42:48 –> 00:42:49 Keith Butler:
Me too

00:42:49 –> 00:42:49 Shaun Dyke:
… onward.

00:42:49 –> 00:42:50 Keith Butler:
Thank you.

00:42:50 –> 00:43:03 Shaun Dyke:
All right, thanks. [upbeat music]