The Skill That Defines Every Great Leader

Shaun
00:00:00.800 – 00:00:43.440
Welcome to the arena. My name is Shaun Dyke, managing partner of Door two.

I’m joined today by Chris Stemp, the producer of this show and our head of marketing. I’m, I’m excited to talk about the topic we’re talking about today. You want to tee us up? Yeah.

Chris
00:00:43.440 – 00:01:23.440
This topic is important one for me, and I was the one saying, Shaun, I think I want to cover it. The topic is, what is leadership – defined.

But before we get into that, I have to say up front, the reason I wanted to put this in here is because I don’t want people tuning out who are like, I’m not a leader. I’m not defined as that in my role at work. I don’t agree with the formality of it. So therefore leadership is not my thing.

Because what you have really kind of showed me over the years is, let’s pause and zoom out. How do we think of leadership and why is that important for really most people in the world who want to accomplish and grow in any sense?

Shaun
00:01:23.740 – 00:01:59.310
Yeah. Such a fair tee up. We have this incredibly reductive vantage point for what we think a leader is.

We think if you don’t sit on an org chart and have people underneath you, then you’re not a leader, which is just incredibly false.

I think at a macro level, I would say that pretty much every good thing that’s happening in the world and every bad thing that’s happening in the world is either the presence or absence of leaders in whatever those constructs are. Those are family systems, those are school systems, those are business systems, those are church systems.

In all of those, people have that opportunity to really explore being a leader and what that means.

Chris
00:01:59.870 – 00:02:10.430
What if I hear that though, and I go, yeah, okay, leaders are shaping the world for better or for worse. And I don’t want to be that. I don’t want to be a world shaper. I don’t want to be an organization shaper.

Shaun
00:02:10.990 – 00:02:28.900
You don’t have to be. Now, hopefully, at a bare minimum, bare minimum, you want to lead your life at least for self.

And if that is the space, you’re still a leader of your life, of the elements that you’re going to experience and what you’re going to do. I mean, you could choose to become massively passive in that space, but it’s improbable than anybody listening is in that space. Right.

Chris
00:02:28.900 – 00:02:53.210
And then go back to our first episode if you’re in that space. We haven’t even stepped into the arena, really. And it’s not a judgment.

There are times when we might say, hey, I want a Mai Tai and I want a beach and I don’t want to lead anything. Yeah, fine, step into the consciously doing that. However, most of us have these desired goal states. In order to get there, we have to lead something.

Typically, it starts with ourselves, but it doesn’t end there. And that’s what we’re going to talk about.

Shaun
00:02:53.210 – 00:02:57.770
Yep, exactly. So it’s that space of, am I willing to step into the spot of being a leader?

Chris
00:02:57.770 – 00:03:00.450
Yep. So what is it? What is leadership as you define it?

Shaun
00:03:00.450 – 00:03:07.290
Yeah. Most simplest terms and convenient definitions. Leadership is the skillful use of influence, period.

Chris
00:03:07.930 – 00:04:12.390
Skillful use of influence. I want you to break that down for us because. And here’s a brief story. I’m aware of this definition. Last night, went to dinner with family.

On the way, I had to drop my parents off somewhere. And we get in the car and my mom’s like, I think you’re a fast driver. And I really think at this point you should know to slow down. It’s dangerous.

You have your kids in the car and she just starts going off on a thing. Right.

And because of the work we do and all the work done over the years, I said, mom, do you think what you’re saying is going to change the way I drive? She said, well, it should. Right. And by the way, love my mother.

That’s not the point. But. And I said, yeah, but I’m 40 plus years old. Like, I’m pretty ingrained in this.

And even if I was going to change, it’s not going to be from this dialogue. So really, who are you doing this for?

Me or you or you? And that’s what this idea of, do you want to influence in what areas of your life are you getting the results you want or are you not?

Shaun
00:04:12.390 – 00:04:53.450
That’s perfect. And so let’s use the example you gave. Your mom was not skillfully using influence in that space. So that’s what’s actually kind of fun.

That brings about the curious question, skillful use of influence. Well, how do you know that you had influence? Behavior change. If you had influence, you will experience behavior change.

Thought and behavior change shifts. So skillful use of influence that brings about behavior change.

I’m going to say it again because I wanted to entrench leadership is the skillful use of influence that brings about behavior change. If behavior change didn’t follow, then we did not have influence.

Chris
00:04:54.250 – 00:04:57.530
If we don’t have influence, can it still be skillful?

Shaun
00:04:57.690 – 00:05:33.830
That’s a fun question. So I oftentimes have a conversation with folks whenever I’m coaching with them and they say, hey, let’s pick a scenario.

I had this individual and I really want them to do their job differently in whatever way it is. And I say, great, so how’s it going? And they say, it’s just, it’s not working. So I’ll have three questions for them.

All right, Number one, did you try to have influence? Have you even made an attempt at having influence? Right. Yes. All right, so that means we now have one of two options that flow from that.

Either you were ineffective at being influential or they are uninfluenceable. What frequency of the time do you think individuals are just completely uninfluenceable?

Chris
00:05:34.310 – 00:05:38.040
Not often, but sometimes it happens.

Shaun
00:05:38.040 – 00:06:10.380
Where people are entrenched.

However, I would say that if you are skillfully using your influence, most of the time, you can find a way to bring it about it. Now, unfortunately, this could be an interesting contentious one.

Unfortunately, in the world today, most of what we’re taught is not to skillfully influence. We’re taught to influence with outrage. We try to change people’s thinking through anger and intensity and vitriolic rant.

I mean, pick any social feed.

Chris
00:06:10.380 – 00:06:20.860
These days, we’re sometimes like over explaining trying to get on our high horse, talk down to and prove their incorrectness.

Shaun
00:06:20.860 – 00:07:23.780
I’m not arguing with you, I’m just telling you why I’m right again and again and again. And then we think on some level that that’s going to do it. So let’s use the example of your mom. Yeah.

Like your mom in that space may be right.

Also, she could easily have shifted that approach in a way that actually might have landed with you probably could have had influence. Me knowing you and all of us, none of us respond well to criticism ever.

It’s a weird thing that we still have not figured out in this world being critical of someone unless that person is so highly attuned at receiving feedback and can really, really understand the meaning behind the words. Which is very uncommon. Yeah. They’re going to experience it as criticism and then they are going to be defensive because you know this as well.

The only reason people defend themselves is because they perceive they’re being attacked. So if you have a person being defensive, they’re experiencing an attack from you. You could argue, well I’m not attacking them. Irrelevant.

The experience is that they’re getting that which, which comes back to a you problem.

Chris
00:07:24.020 – 00:07:53.980
Right. That actually the you problem is one of the core components of this definition. Skillful use of influence.

Because we then can try to modify somebody’s behavior, influence their behavior. And we often will do it in our way because we think it’s best. And then when they don’t change, we say that’s on them.

They are an autonomous individual. They now have the necessary information. If they don’t change, why is that my fault? Right.

Shaun
00:07:53.980 – 00:08:12.980
Like just bend to my will world. I don’t understand. Let’s use the example of being a parent.

Attempting to influence as a parent. Now somebody might say I don’t have to influence my children. They should just be obedient to what I tell them to do. I mean that’s a thought line.

You can take it. Best of luck.

Chris
00:08:12.980 – 00:08:14.380
It might work until a certain age.

Shaun
00:08:15.340 – 00:08:31.660
I’m just saying like it’s improbable it’s going to be effective. And certain things you can.

But oftentimes you’re trying to find a spot where you want to influence them in some way, shape or form. So pick any example. Pick an example of. We’re currently in the phase of effective teeth brushing.

Chris
00:08:31.740 – 00:08:40.940
Oh, I know that world. Just get the newest toothbrushes that spin, you can’t screw those up.

Shaun
00:08:41.020 – 00:09:54.460
So we have those. They screw them up when you turn them on and then you just hold them out here and look in the mirror or use them as a microphone. That thing’s spinning and it’s winging toothpaste all over the mirror.

Yeah. Or they spit and they spit upwards for some reason, not down. So then, you come in after a long day of work and what you do is you just laugh, right? Of course not. That’s not what we do. We get irritated and then we start attempting to describe dental hygiene practice.

Did you know that you are going to get inflammation of your gums if you don’t do it?

So, yeah, we drop into an approach where we’re trying to inform or influence behavior stylistically in a default approach that we want to use. And then when we don’t get the outcomes, we want behavior change. So we’re ineffective at influencing with the style that we’re using.

We rarely take a step back and say, oh, that’s a me problem. Or better, that’s a me opportunity. We attribute the absence of change in the individual to a them problem.

I don’t think we could underscore, italicize, and bold that space enough.

Chris
00:09:54.940 – 00:11:17.820
Using kids as an example is the best. So we’ll use the toothbrushing example here. Most parents listening will say this. Yep, I do this. Okay. I tell them the way to do it.

And by the way, that’s fine. At first they need the information.

Then they don’t do it. And what do parents do next time? They tell them the information in the same way. Maybe it’s quantity of messages that they need. Right. And it’s crazy.

We will let this pattern go on forever. This is the cool work. This is what we’re talking about, is first, it’s this recognition.

If the behavior change has not occurred, you are not skillfully using influence. So we’re not leading effectively. So now we have to ask what can I do differently as opposed to what do they need to do differently?

And in one quick shift, which we’re going to get into in a future episode, the more we understand a person we can influence in the way that is most effective for them.

So one of my children, I have to just ask questions, hey, what do you think would be a better way to clean every tooth in your mouth?

I mean, that was three years of parenting habit. It took one statement to change a behavior. That’s how important this can be.

Shaun
00:11:18.300 – 00:13:12.270
Kids, adults, friends, family members, they all have ways that they would like to be interacted and connected with. And we have the way that we like to do that. So sometimes when we’re at our best self, we have that capacity to bring range present to the table.

Maybe that night, we’re able to come in and we’re able to have fun with it, and we’re able to just be kind of jovial and goofy and brush our teeth with the kids and let’s both of us spit on the mirror at the same time and then laugh. And then they have to clean it up. And then tomorrow we say, that’s messy. Let’s not do it again.

And you create a core memory that’s really fun in that spot. We don’t a lot of times have that. The space is just not where we want it to be. So we will calcify in our approach.

I think the most important thing to consider in this space, if we loop back to saying leadership doesn’t mean you have a org structure. It means you’re bringing influence about in a skillful way that results in behavior change with self or others.

Interestingly, application for self will be fun on how we chase that, but it is. You’re just trying to find the manner and the method and in which it’s going to be the most effective.

So if it’s with my child, can I find that way to create the connection with them or the style or the approach that’s going to land? Same thing with my marketing associate, Same thing with the director of finance. Same thing with the clerk at the rental car counter.

In all of those situations, you’re. You have a goal present. You’re trying to get to an intended outcome. There are humans in the mix, which complicates things.

And am I willing to understand that in all of this, the ultimate agency lies with me on adjusting how I am showing up for that individual to have the greatest level of influence with them?

Chris
00:13:12.590 – 00:14:00.860
One of the things I really want to underscore is at times in your life, you will be presented with the opportunity to lead.

And so when we talk about being a leader or leadership, it’s also being able to recognize those moments where if you choose the skillful use of influence, both parties will have better outcomes. This is what we’re talking about.

There’s a difference that you talk about really eloquently between manipulation or leadership influencing towards a goal, or bending them to your will and your goal. Tell us a little bit more about how we can can break those apart to know that we’re doing it in the right and the most effective way.

Shaun
00:14:00.860 – 00:16:15.260
Yeah, it is funny the frequency with which this comes up. So one of the workshops that we teach, we spend a deep amount of time understanding, you know, encoded human dynamics.

Sounds weird to say, but like, you know, what are those spaces that drive us, our patterns that we oftentimes don’t even recognize are running those scripts that are processing through it. And as we go through that, we start talking to people about being mindful about the best way to have influencer impact.

Let’s use a simple example with it.

If, if we’ve got somebody in our life that tends to be more people pleasing or people centric, they’re likely going to have more of a desire on connection and relatability. So if we recognize that when they come into the office or they wake up in the morning next to us and they say, how’s your morning?

They actually want to know. Taking 30 seconds, 10 seconds, 5 seconds to say it’s good. Thanks, I appreciate it. That actually matters. It connects inside of it.

Well, when we’re teaching these ideas at some point in that teach, someone asks the question, how is this not manipulation? Well, the difference between influence and manipulation, in truth, you’re wielding a complimentary level of skill sets.

You might be wielding the exact same skill sets. The difference in its simplest description is intent.

If I am intending to manipulate, it’s usually being done from a self centered, self aggrandizing, somewhat nefarious perspective. Influence tends to be transparent, it tends to be open. Manipulation tends to exist in the shadows.

And the reality is sometimes we have to bump into a truth. It’s kind of hard. We might be in a spot where we actually think like we’re influencing it.

If we really take that step back to some degree, we might be trying to manipulate that situation through our gain. It does happen at times. This is why we say time and time again, all growth starts with self awareness. We got to have a good lens on ourself.

We got to know who we are and what we’re doing and what are we trying to do in those spots. So if I’m trying to influence a new go to market strategy inside of my business, why am I doing that?

Am I really doing that for the greater cause, the greater benefit of the business? Or is it possible I’m doing it to try to position myself for that next step in some way, shape and form? I may be right. I might be in that.

Chris
00:16:15.260 – 00:17:06.480
And you know what’s so fascinating and complex and almost scary about this?

We were talking about this before we hit record is I don’t know if we’ll ever run out of things to talk about because look a level down, it’s do I even know what my true intent is here? So as a leader, let’s say a formal leader in a business or corporation, am I just trying to get to the Next rung on the ladder.

And I’m doing that because I believe that will prove to myself and others that I’m competent or worthy. And so in order to accomplish that, I am pushing towards these goals. Right. That’s a level of awareness that takes some time to work through.

Why would somebody do it if they have thus far been societally deemed as successful? Because this ain’t easy. Why not just keep operating?

Shaun
00:17:06.640 – 00:18:35.730
That’s actually one of the most challenging things we deal with. So from a professional standpoint, when we are coaching senior executives, they’re likely pretty successful by most rights.

They’ve probably done well financially. They’ve probably got some impact levels.

Why change, especially at this point, the distillation and calcification of behavior patterns, because those got them there have been predicated on a behavior pattern. We’re fortunate that most of the folks that we work with are high profile, high impact, high potential.

They’re coming to us with a level of self awareness, knowing I can amplify and refine my effect and my influence.

And so we’re in that spot where we get to do that. It’s uncommon that we’re working with somebody that’s basically being sent to us because they’re not showing up in the way that they need to, that’s always harder to get that. And then we got to create the awareness and the visibility around like ah, yeah, I do need to do that differently.

So it tends to be someone locating themselves in their life in a way that they recognize.

Back to our prior discussion in episode one around I am feeling some sort of discomfort, dissatisfaction, despair where there’s a delta between what I’m wanting to have happen.

The cool part in that and what we’re asserting here is whether you’re leading others or yourself, you have agency of determining if I’m actually going to do that or am I just going to blame the world around me.

Chris
00:18:35.730 – 00:18:36.250
Yeah.

Shaun
00:18:36.250 – 00:19:52.540
And it’s a whole hell of a lot easier to blame your successes in life and your limitations on the world around you.

I remember doing a keynote one time and I had this conversation. I was really kind of daunted to have it because of the way the world exists. I was a little afraid to have it.

And the dialogue was sitting in the space of being able to recognize that we all have desires to move to a different place in our life. Some that might be very minimal shifts in what we’re trying to accomplish do. And that’s outstanding.

Maybe we’ve got a strong felt level of Dissatisfaction in it, maybe. Some want to do bigger and better things. They want their name and lights.

They want their name on a building bigger and better by their own definition, not mine, on what they want to do with it. And that requires all of us to take stock of where am I today and am I willing to lead myself through that?

And the conversation that I was having on stage, which was a little bit awkward, was acknowledging that we don’t all start in the same space. There’s variance in where I started. You started. Various different folks are starting in places. Some of us had greater support systems.

Some of us had better guidance in how to build these skills. All true. And then what we do is once we get through that part, we recognize we get to curse the dark or light a candle.

Chris
00:19:53.500 – 00:19:56.220
Curse the dark or light a candle.

Shaun
00:19:56.220 – 00:20:16.700
I can sit in a spot that says, I’m not having the effect I want. These people aren’t bending to my will. I never had the opportunity to do X, Y, or Z. You can do that. You absolutely can do that.

You’ll find a huge amount of people willing to sit in that circle with you and curse the dark. Because a lot of us love to just switch off the lights and just.

Chris
00:20:16.700 – 00:20:18.060
Be a spectator in the arena.

Shaun
00:20:18.060 – 00:20:18.580
100%.

Chris
00:20:18.580 – 00:20:19.100
Got it.

Shaun
00:20:19.340 – 00:21:13.030
Or you can step into the arena at whatever level of equip that you have and start incrementally growing capability sets.

So if leadership is the skillful use of influence, and we know we have influence when we bring about behavior change, we get to realize that success in our life, success and influence is a you problem. If you’re in that spot where you’re feeling like, I’m just not having the impact that I want, I’ve got this group of junior associates.

They just can’t get their head together on what they’re doing. Yeah, all of that’s a you problem. It’s a you opportunity. But that’s a you problem.

Stop Other orienting your ineffective influence that’s on you, using a calcified behavior pattern that is no longer serving you or potentially never has. So are you willing to walk at the honest confrontation of self and then move to a better place?

Chris
00:21:13.590 – 00:21:41.980
So one of the things I like to kind of wrap up our discussions with are a distillation of the takeaways of the complexities that we can often kick around for fun. I want to start with this one.

Imagine the person who still doesn’t identify with the formal title of leadership, and perhaps they don’t even fully have the goal of influencing others. We say, okay, so you have to lead self. So skillful use of influence on self. What does that mean?

Shaun
00:21:41.980 – 00:21:42.980
How the heck do I do that?

Chris
00:21:42.980 – 00:21:46.980
Yeah, well, but what does it even mean? How does our work allow that to happen?

Shaun
00:21:47.380 – 00:21:48.220
How much time do we have?

Chris
00:21:48.220 – 00:21:51.259
Man, you got about a couple minutes, so you better be sharp.

Shaun
00:21:51.259 – 00:24:11.000
Okay, so it begins with recognizing the first part we talked about before. With self, there is a delta and there is a tension. So I have to first acknowledge in myself I have a delta between where I am and where I want to be.

And I feel that tension, and I do want to move beyond that. If that doesn’t exist, if need is not present for you, just have a sandwich. It’s not there inside of it.

If I recognize the need is present in me most of the time. What we’re able to do and what we start with is we start with looking at it.

Sounds quite simple, but saying if you look at the habits and your current lifestyle and behavior, how much of that is moving you in the direction of that goal that you want to. So we take stock of that. It takes a minute. You gotta put in the work to do it. We gotta honestly acknowledge it. Yeah. Not as much as I want it to.

Outstanding. We then have to work through. Great.

If there was a thing or two things that I could do that start moving me in the direction of that goal, what would those things be and how do I start activating them?

You start getting into a whole new world that you know quite well of, habit stacking and all kinds of other things that we can explore and go through. But ultimately it’s the recognition that my current pattern is not getting me to the desired end state. There you go.

So I have to activate a new pattern, which means I have to be willing to influence self. I encourage folks to start with something really simplistic sounding. They will often say, I’m not motivated.

And I will ask the question of, that’s fine. Are you committed? Because there’s a difference between motivation and commitment.

Motivation almost always has a complimentary feeling state tied into it. And it’s usually positive, like, I’m motivated to go do this thing. I’m excited to do that.

Let’s take, for example, going to the gym and getting healthy. Some folks are motivated, some are not. I don’t want to. I gotta drag my ass into the gym. I don’t feel that need stage behind it.

But can you create a commitment to yourself around it? And that is hard to do. So we usually do shrinking the change a little bit. Chip Heath Chip and Dan Heath work.

We look at trying to say, like, what are some of those incremental wins that you can do? Our language that some of people know through foot toss, what is that small step that I can do that starts moving that.

So influencing or leading self is acknowledging that where I am is incongruent with where I want to be. And I’m willing to start moving the needle on some of those pieces. That’s it at its most simplest form.

Chris
00:24:11.000 – 00:24:50.230
And the good news is, again, why we put this together is there are methodologies, frameworks that help you understand those elements of yourself. Right. So that’s one of the things I’m really excited to get into in one of our upcoming episodes.

The other is then take that lens you just painted for us and turn it outward to when we’re trying to influence others. It still starts with that self awareness piece. It goes to the goal state, the intent that we talked about earlier.

And then it’s a willingness to understand others, wants, needs, desires and, and see how can we connect with them and marry those up to influence accordingly.

Shaun
00:24:50.470 – 00:25:54.110
Incredibly well said. 1000%. So it’s the same construct we’re applying to self and to others. The challenges are we willing to be patient and allow people to learn.

Takes time. It takes time.

When you’re trying to influence at these core levels and move folks, they’ve gotta be willing to go through that learning cycle of having the experience happen, trying it out, experiencing the win, inventorying the win, moving it forward. You know, we’re talking about some incredible things. The fundamental piece of this podcast is exploring and understanding unconscious patterns.

Inherited scripts, leading and living life by default, not by design. And we’re trying to say you have an opportunity to do that differently if you want. And if you do, I guarantee money back guarantee that you will have a better life. If you’re willing to do that work. Or you can curl up into the cave and be mad at the world around you.

Chris
00:25:54.110 – 00:25:55.350
You can have a sandwich.

Shaun
00:25:55.350 – 00:25:56.110
You can sit in the stands.

Chris
00:25:56.270 – 00:25:59.230
Anything left unsaid on this topic?

Shaun
00:25:59.950 – 00:26:20.200
Ultimately, I guess if I was going to say we’re going to leave you with something, you have an infinite number of ways you can respond to the world around you. And if you’re choosing to just lock into the ones that you’re the most comfortable with. You’re leaving so much on the table.

Chris
00:26:20.360 – 00:26:21.480
I think we stop it there.

Shaun
00:26:21.720 – 00:26:23.880
Perfect man. Look forward to next time.

Chris
00:26:24.040 – 00:27:09.590
All right, thanks for joining us in the arena. If you want to keep growing, the best thing you can do is join our weekly newsletter.

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