Are You an Insecure Overachiever? How to Keep the Drive and Lose the Doubt

Shaun Dyke   00:00:00

Welcome to In The Arena. My name is Shaun Dyke, managing partner here at DoorTwo. So one of the things that we’ve noticed over the years in our work is that many of the leaders we’re fortunate enough to work with are self-admittedly what is known as an insecure overachiever. And what we get to do in our work is help them identify where they get their self-worth from. Joining me today is podcast regular Mr. Chris Stemp to kind of talk through a more meaty sort of complex discussion around this one.

Chris Stemp   00:00:40

Yeah. And admittedly, I kind of want to be here just to learn from you. Right? This I mean, you’re the one having these calls, getting the midnight texts from colleagues, friends, clients about these types of things. An insecure overachiever, I think on its face is something a lot of people either identify with or question, “What does that mean? Do I fall into it?” So given what you see, how would you define insecure overachiever, and what does it look like?

Shaun Dyke   00:01:09

Yeah. Yeah, probably doesn’t have a perfectly clean definition, does it? And in some ways, what I think is interesting about this idea is the vast majority of people that are successful would 100 percent call themselves an overachiever. Now if we drop the word insecure in front of that.

Chris Stemp   00:01:26

Good point.

Shaun Dyke   00:01:27

There’s a lot of people that are like, “No, that’s not me. I’m not. I’m quite good in what I’m doing.” Many that have heard the phrase, many that know what it is, there start an honest recognition of that truth. So what is insecure overachiever? I’d say on its face, it’s an individual that tends to orient their self-worth or their value in the work accomplishments they do. So if I do enough, if I sell enough, if I earn enough, of course, being this loose and arbitrary space then I am enough. So my attribution of my worth is connected to the output of my work product.

Chris Stemp   00:02:15

Got it. Okay. And now, how do I then differentiate between, “Well, I’m just motivated. I’m just achievement-driven. I’m just goal-oriented,” to insecure overachiever? And in truth, I think you would admit that the labeling of it isn’t what matters.

Shaun Dyke   00:02:33

No.

Chris Stemp   00:02:33

But what does matter?

Shaun Dyke   00:02:35

Yeah, I think what matters out of the gate is the recognition that if this is something that I have, which is what’s funny about this and we’ve talked about this before. I think we talked about one of the times whenever, like what’s the dialogue behind the closed door?

Chris Stemp   00:02:46

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:02:47

Is that when the individual and you socialize this concept with them, their willingness to say like, “Well, that’s totally me,” right? And honestly, isn’t that like most people?

Chris Stemp   00:02:57

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:02:57

And I think you and I talked a little bit about if you look at like, well, what percentage of people drop into this category on really, successful, we use that term of, you know, executives that move into these leadership ranks. And I think we said that if you, if you meant this by individuals that orient their self-worth in their work product, that feel a need to burn the candle at both ends, that are just perpetually in pursuit of bigger, better, faster it’s materially the vast majority of leaders. A lot of individuals in this space. Does that mean that they’re not just goal-driven or that I’m not in pursuit of excellence? Well, it doesn’t mean that ’cause materially you would kind of look the same on some level. So let me give this example. There’s a guy that I work with that I coach that, I mean, anybody that just had observation of him would say like, “The human’s incredible.” Like, what they’ve accomplished, their recall capacity, their collective capability of organizational knowledge, their family life, the Instagram perfect realities that they get to experience that other people look on and see. I mean, we would all look at him and say like, “Oh, that’s incredible.” “This person’s amazing.” And he is. Yet behind the closed doors when I chat with him there’s a perpetual fear of failing, feeling like I’m just not doing it right, feeling like I’m not doing enough.

Chris Stemp   00:04:27

So the achievement is not fulfilling the self-worth.

Shaun Dyke   00:04:31

No.

Chris Stemp   00:04:32

In this example.

Shaun Dyke   00:04:32

It’s in essence masking it on some levels.

Chris Stemp   00:04:35

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:04:35

So I think that’s kind of one of the complicated spaces that we work in. But when I other-orient my value, I misattribute my self-worth or my value to the work that I’m doing, I just need to do more work and more work and more work. And as I execute and as I do those things, I get a hit of some value, but I’m not fixing. All that does materially is demonstrate my ability to be productive. It’s not addressing or tending to some of the fractures that we have in identity.

Chris Stemp   00:05:15

Now, the question that I have is, take your job, for example, right? Like what you do.

Shaun Dyke   00:05:22

Yep.

Chris Stemp   00:05:22

For a living, coaching, consulting, guiding leaders and executives and things like that. How does this play a role in what you are hired to do?

Shaun Dyke   00:05:33

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:05:33

The reason I’m asking this is because I could imagine somebody thinking, “Yeah, it’s the, it’s the cross I bear, but it definitely makes me productive.”

Shaun Dyke   00:05:45

Sure.

Chris Stemp   00:05:45

So it’s one of those things of like, “Do I want to fault the thing that got me here?” And then if you try to highlight that for them, how are you adding value in that moment or in their role as a leader of an organization?

Shaun Dyke   00:05:59

Yeah. Ah, there’s a few things in that. So let’s look at how do we wanna bifurcate? Let’s start with in my earlier years, how that internal drive actually probably served me as an individual contributor and as an early leader because that showing up in me did translate into I get a lot done.

Chris Stemp   00:06:22

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:06:22

I mean, one could argue that companies might seek insecure overachievers.

Chris Stemp   00:06:30

Almost Wait, almost weaponize it in- unintentionally against themselves to an extent, you think?

Shaun Dyke   00:06:36

Yeah, because on some level, I hire this individual that works 14 hours a day.

Chris Stemp   00:06:41

Exactly.

Shaun Dyke   00:06:41

Burns through it, gets it done, execute. I mean, they’re just crushing it all the time. So on, as a, as an individual contributor, let’s go there, and we can even take that back further, high school, elementary school, wherever those things are. When I’m doing those things, the adverse effect is probably only personally felt. I don’t, I don’t have a adverse effect on people around me yet.

Chris Stemp   00:07:07

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:07:07

I know it because I’ve got a felt sense of dissatisfaction that grows in me. I’m trying to do but I’m not actually feeling that headspace, right? So we talked about this way early on, whenever there’s that echo and that dissent between my worth and my accomplishment, and I can just feel this kind of delta in there. But as an individual contributor, the, If I’m coaching somebody in that space, I’m primarily gonna be working with them on their felt level of satisfaction and accomplishment. And do they consistently feel dissatisfied, empty, treadmill, just doing it again and again and again? There’s the other vantage point, which is once I lead people. Before I jump there, any chase on that one?

Chris Stemp   00:07:52

Well, actually, I just wanna double down. It’s a really important statement and you’ve been teaching me to not let important statements just go off with the wind, right? So let’s say you’re working with, coaching, mentoring an individual contributor. The position doesn’t fully matter, it’s just semantics, but how do you feel is potentially the most important thing.

Shaun Dyke   00:08:16

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:08:16

If we really zoom out. Now we would even say an evolved organization would like to make sure that their people feel good about.

Shaun Dyke   00:08:25

Absolutely.

Chris Stemp   00:08:25

What they’re doing and.

Shaun Dyke   00:08:25

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:08:26

Et cetera, et cetera. So let’s say you have that high performer working 14 hours a day or whatever it is, and you get on a call with them or whatever it might be, and they say, “Yeah, I’m crushing it.” And you go, “I know. They’re slating you for a leadership position.” And they go, “I struggle to wake up every morning,” and they don’t know why. This is where that line becomes important. Am I trying to fill a hole with work that needs. you know, or fill a hole with achievement or accomplishment that needs to be filled.

Shaun Dyke   00:08:57

Something else.

Chris Stemp   00:08:58

Elsewhere.

Shaun Dyke   00:08:58

This is misattribution of value. Actually, let’s just, let’s link into what it looks like when you’re in a leadership role, and we’ll circle back around.

Chris Stemp   00:09:05

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:09:05

So those 2 things.

Chris Stemp   00:09:06

Yes.

Shaun Dyke   00:09:06

2 statements. one of these individuals I know will hear this. The other one may not. they were both in leadership roles. I’m coaching one of them. Another one I was in a session with. The person that I’m coaching, I got on a call with, and they say to me, “You’re gonna be upset with me.” And I said, “Why am I gonna be upset with you?” And they said, “Because I had to open my car door at a stoplight this morning and throw up.” Because the felt level of anxiety, anxiousness, stress, pressure, self-applied that I’ve got to do. By the way, that’s not only there. That’s also as the room mom. That’s also as the needing to look perfect in the family systems. That’s when I’m hosting the. All those things.

Chris Stemp   00:09:46

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:09:47

That I am trying to get self-worth and value through my work product. The other individual was a factory manager in a large organization. he took over a really poor running factory, and then he got it to the best running factory, and so he won the worst to 1st award among, like, 30 factories. And everybody’s like, “The guy’s a rock star. It’s amazing.” And that’s what we all saw. And we’re sitting at an event, and I’m sitting with him outside of a fire, and he said “For nearly a year, I woke up every morning and threw up before I went to work.”

Chris Stemp   00:10:21

Wow.

Shaun Dyke   00:10:21

Because the felt pressure that I now. In order for me to be perceived as valuable and worthy, I must sustain and maintain this level of pressure, this level of performance. That is a hell of a burden that we apply, and many of us apply it.

Chris Stemp   00:10:45

It’s actually. I just got goosebumps because I don’t know how much better I’ve gotten at it, but I just thought back to when I actually started consulting and was all of a sudden in front of rooms, right? And I remember for the 1st 2 years, probably the most stressful time of my life, because let’s say I did 100 events a year. I had to bat, or at least I thought I had to bat 1,000. Genuinely. So every room, 20 people times 100, 2,000 people had to think, believe, say give feedback that was the best day they’ve ever had, right? And only really in this moment thinking back to say, like, ” well, why?” And then, “What did I tell myself about that? And if that didn’t happen, what meaning was I placing on it?”

Shaun Dyke   00:11:41

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:11:42

The reason I’m telling this kind of story or learning on the fly here is because I think for those listening, you know, you’re driving along, you’re mowing the lawn, whatever it is, it’s kinda easy to go, “Yeah, I mean, I like to accomplish stuff, but I don’t.” Tying your self-worth seems like a pretty, you know, deep you know, event here. In reality, how often do we do that and not even recognize we’ve done it?

Shaun Dyke   00:12:06

Oh, yes.

Chris Stemp   00:12:06

And that’s what you’re saying.

Shaun Dyke   00:12:08

Correct.

Chris Stemp   00:12:08

That’s part of your job is to notice it from that third-party vantage point.

Shaun Dyke   00:12:13

This is yeah, this is oftentimes not done with intentional malice to self.

Chris Stemp   00:12:18

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:12:18

Right. It’s the self-critic over the self-coach that tends to show up internally with it. We’re just not even aware that we’re in pursuit of that. So link back to, as a manager or as a leader, what’s the adverse reality tied into this? Because we said with the individual contributor, really, it’s in a lot of ways primarily self-experience.

Chris Stemp   00:12:38

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:12:39

In truth, there’s probably a radiance to it for those around you. But in a leadership role, if you’re in a spot where the activity work you’re leading and/or doing is more oriented around scratching an itch you personally have in order to get your needs met and your self-worth experienced, are we misdirecting activity? Are we misdirecting the org? Are we disabling or disengaging the people that we lead at a cost because we need to get a need met? And I will tell you, most of the time, people are not aware of that. It’s not a thought that they necessarily have.

Chris Stemp   00:13:19

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:13:20

So if you jump all the way to the end of a career arc, we’ve talked about this, when I get to coach someone into retirement or our team coaches someone into retirement, this is one of the biggest things we have to work toward which is, hey in 6 months, you will no longer have a business card with a title. You will no longer have a team. You will no longer have an individual execution of something. The things that you needed to accomplish or achieve that you used as a marker for your value will not be there anymore.

Chris Stemp   00:13:51

Yep.

Shaun Dyke   00:13:51

Why do we think people that drop into retirement, there’s so much depression tied into it and lost.

Chris Stemp   00:13:56

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:13:56

In what they’re doing? Because we’ve gone through that work. Okay, so why would you use this in a coaching space? Like, why would we approach it this way? So there’s a gentleman I just started working with. He’s incredible, massive executor has a series of priorities and plans for the team to execute against. None of them are wrong for the team to execute against, but they’re also his goals. And when you are in a spot of insecure overachievement, it is highly improbable that you will not achieve the goal.

Chris Stemp   00:14:26

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:14:26

You’re going to pursue it.

Chris Stemp   00:14:27

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:14:28

So I asked him, “So that is your goals as a leader is to deliver on those 5?” And he said, “Well, no, not really.” And I said, “Well, what are your goals?” And he said, “Well, ultimately, I want to leave an incredibly competent, capable team that has a legacy of me growing them into this self-sustaining group.” I said, “Great. So where are your goals?”

Chris Stemp   00:14:53

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:14:53

None of his goals are directing him toward that behavior.

Chris Stemp   00:14:58

Got it.

Shaun Dyke   00:14:59

So he’s going to pursue accomplishment of the task because it scratches the itch. So number one, that’s cool. Number 2, let’s create a list of things that you’re gonna do that’ll better serve you and your collective experience. And we then got to take the more uncomfortable step back which is even that, now I’ve reoriented a set of activities that I’m gonna do to serve a broader purpose. That’s still great.

Chris Stemp   00:15:25

Yep.

Shaun Dyke   00:15:25

But it’s still going back to you’re attempting to execute work to find self-worth. So the question I asked him, really genuinely, was, “Do you know why you need to do this?” Like, what is compelling you to want to do that?

Chris Stemp   00:15:46

Okay.

Shaun Dyke   00:15:46

Now, that’s gonna sound simple on face value, but if we just pause for a second, I won’t do this to you real time. We could do this to each other, but if we said like, “Why are you doing what you do?”

Chris Stemp   00:15:56

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:15:57

You would give me initially a couple of things that are true, accurate, but incomplete. And then if we dug a little deeper into that, and then a little deeper into that, we would get to a real core of like, “Why do I do these things that I need to do?” So in our coaching work around this idea, when I have someone that really embodies insecure overachiever, the internal language I often use is trying to figure out what the ghosts they’re chasing are. They’re in pursuit of a feeling state. They’re in pursuit of an acknowledgement from someone in some way that has them feel whole. So there’s 2 questions I ask. These questions sound super simple at face value. you get I don’t know if you’ve answered them for yourself or.

Chris Stemp   00:16:41

I haven’t.

Shaun Dyke   00:16:41

I’ll ask you this one. They sound really easy. I ask them not to answer them on the spot. And then they almost always say, “Well, I think I can.” I say, “Great, but still take it back. If you’ve got a spouse, chat with them.” Question number one is, do you know what you need to hear in order to know that you’re enough? Now, somebody might say, “Wow, that sounds super fluffy in what we’re doing. That sounds more like you’re sitting and laying on a couch than you are in an executive coaching situation.” But if we’re unaware of what’s driving what we’re doing, we drop into a lot of autopilot activity, doing things, serving a need we’re not even aware we have. So question number one, do you know what you need to hear? The second one, which is probably more complicated, is from who? Whether we want to believe it or not, the vast majority of us have heroes in our lives that we want to admire us, that we want to be proud of us, that we want to say, “Nice job.” And it’s often those individuals that we’re pursuing acknowledgement from around the things that we’re doing.

Chris Stemp   00:17:56

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:17:58

I’ll pause.

Chris Stemp   00:17:59

Well, Yeah, good pause, because this is what the thinker in me is wondering is I think those 2 questions, extremely powerful and always pertinent, and there is a additional component, which is what do they need to hear from themselves? Meaning, like, you know, I think a lot of people would say that motivation to accomplish, that drive is part of a want to not just feel valued, but to be valuable. I get that people might want to be filling a hole somehow, and that’s a, unhealthy use of their skills to an extent, right? But in the same vein, we all need to be driven to accomplish by something, or else we could squander our talents. So what do we replace it with?

Shaun Dyke   00:19:03

Okay, so a couple of fun things. One, and you actually hit on something that’s pretty fun that u-usually doesn’t come up in lead or till coaching. I ask 2 questions, right? What do you need to hear? Who do you need to hear it from? That 2nd question often is self.

Chris Stemp   00:19:18

Ah, I see. Okay. So that person can be you.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:22

Correct.

Chris Stemp   00:19:22

You coach towards that.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:23

In an ideal world.

Chris Stemp   00:19:25

Ah.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:25

That person ought to be you.

Chris Stemp   00:19:27

Wow. Okay.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:29

So that we’re not perpetually other-orienting self-worth. Now, this is really hard, right?

Chris Stemp   00:19:34

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:34

You and I, relatively healthy folks.

Chris Stemp   00:19:36

Right. I’ve worked on it. Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:37

We also genuinely appreciate what our wife has to say about us.

Chris Stemp   00:19:39

Yeah, of course.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:40

That matters.

Chris Stemp   00:19:40

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:41

We have friends, we have colleagues. What you think about me matters to me.

Chris Stemp   00:19:44

Matters. Yep.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:44

Like, that does matter.

Chris Stemp   00:19:46

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:19:46

My headspace is never that you should just dismiss the perception and the experience of others with you, but if we pursue them in a place that we have such emotional and/or mental fragility that unless those individuals give me the gold star that I am not worthy, then we create a disparity in worth that’s just really pronounced.

Chris Stemp   00:20:13

It’s I like this. It’s almost a triage in a, in a one sense or a prioritization in another, which is those 2 questions allow you to I remember when you 1st said this in a, in a room, and I thought about that. It allows you to say, “What wounds, if you will, do I have that are not serving me?” Right? And then if you can work through that, work past that, acknowledge it, et cetera, then you may have the space to say, “What is my internal dialogue?”

Shaun Dyke   00:20:43

Yes.

Chris Stemp   00:20:44

But you might have to go through the other one 1st.

Shaun Dyke   00:20:47

Yeah, 100%. And I think what’s funny in this space too is a lot of times people have to be ready for this conversation.

Chris Stemp   00:20:56

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:20:57

So an interesting space is, like, it could be so easy if you’re listening in this spot to be like, “Oh, I don’t need to discuss my inner child.” That’s that’s not what we’re doing.

Chris Stemp   00:21:04

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:21:05

We’re looking at, like, you heard messages as you grew up.

Chris Stemp   00:21:08

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:21:08

And those messages formed in you.

Chris Stemp   00:21:11

Yep.

Shaun Dyke   00:21:11

Beliefs you have about yourself and others. we’ve talked about this as you know, the contracts that you signed that you’re unaware of, that you mentally signed a contract around value, around felt levels of accomplishment that maybe you should have not have signed ’cause you did not read the final, the small print inside of that. So it’s in those spaces that I’m wanting people to look toward. Because as we talk about and we know inside of this idea of that leadership chain there we have unconscious patterns of thought that drive us. Those come from something. They’re existing from somewhere. We wanna create awareness of the, for the individual to know where is that coming from for me. So it’s improbable that an insecure overachiever is going to stop becoming an overachiever. I don’t want that.

Chris Stemp   00:22:10

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:22:10

I want them to become a secure overachiever.

Chris Stemp   00:22:12

And you know why I think there’s a couple of things you said that I have to highlight. One, we’ve said this many times, primary way we define leadership, skillful use of influence.

Shaun Dyke   00:22:21

Yep.

Chris Stemp   00:22:22

Can you skillfully, authentically, correctly influence your team if you are subconsciously driven by an insecurity, a need to accomplish, right? So think about how you’re going to lead said team with that. Again, part of your job. I’m working with a senior leader. They have a lot of people underneath them.

Shaun Dyke   00:22:43

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:22:43

I need them to become whole, healthy, identify these gaps, whatever we wanna call it, so that they can influence those below them in an effective manner, right?

Shaun Dyke   00:22:53

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:22:54

There’s that aspect. There’s also the element to what you just said of, I don’t wanna say getting to the end, but just you will be more effective in your achievement if there’s a solid foundation.

Shaun Dyke   00:23:09

And it is the headspace that says, like, with confidence, not arrogance I know. So ego, I think, has 2 definition. One is an overinflated sense of self-importance. The other is appropriate pride in yourself. So matters of ego are curious in this space because when you have that complex insecurity around ego where you’ve got actions that you’re doing that are hoping to serve this gap we have in identity this hole we need to fill, that becomes really insatiable. And then the other part that ties into this, I have to give this to Daniel Holden CHRO of Nestle. He gave me a phrase the other day that I just was like, “This is brilliant.” He I don’t know if it’s his or he got it from somewhere, but he gets it in my eyes. He said “Uncommunicated expectations are premeditated grievances.”

Chris Stemp   00:24:02

Say it again.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:02

Uncommunicated expectations are premeditated grievances.

Chris Stemp   00:24:08

Because I know I want something, and when it doesn’t happen, I’m going to get mad.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:11

Get mad about it.

Chris Stemp   00:24:12

About that.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:12

But I probably also didn’t tell you about that.

Chris Stemp   00:24:14

Of course, right?

Shaun Dyke   00:24:14

So I’m leading individuals, and I know I need these things to happen, but why do I need these things to happen? ‘Cause I need them to satisfy my issues and my itch, the things that I need inside of this space.

Chris Stemp   00:24:24

There you go.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:24

So that thing needs to be executed and accomplished. Am I saying it needs to be executed or accomplished because of the grander purpose of the business execution? And then maybe the individual doesn’t feel that same kind of need state around it versus situations where it’s an articulation of this matters to me.

Chris Stemp   00:24:40

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:40

Like, it’s important to me. Like, think about if I came to you and I said, “Hey, Chris, I’d really love this thing to get done because I think it would be better for DoorTwo.” I think you would lock in and you would do it.

Chris Stemp   00:24:51

100%.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:52

But I think, tell me I’m wrong that if I came to you and said, “Hey, I really need this thing to be done because, well, in truth, man, it just personally matters to me.”

Chris Stemp   00:24:59

Oh, yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:24:59

Like, I feel like it will help me to feel like the pursuit of my dreams are better realized.

Chris Stemp   00:25:06

Sure.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:07

I’m assuming you’d be more inclined to help serve that 2nd one inside of it.

Chris Stemp   00:25:11

I actually think either from you would resonate almost the exact same, but it’s due to the prior relationship building done in a.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:22

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:25:22

What I think is a strong leadership way.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:24

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:25:24

This is where I was going with that is, the leader who approaches from insecure overachiever ideals might say or you may have led in, “Hey, I need you to do this. You gotta do this. We need more.” And then I or the people you lead would drop into the fervor of trying to meet that.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:44

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:25:44

But once the foundation is set, it makes your job a little easier.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:49

A lot easier.

Chris Stemp   00:25:50

So I kind of think it’s dependent upfront.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:52

Yeah, I agree.

Chris Stemp   00:25:53

On how you.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:53

And I think in those.

Chris Stemp   00:25:54

Show up.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:54

But you know where it’s coming from.

Chris Stemp   00:25:55

Right.

Shaun Dyke   00:25:57

I’ll give an add-in that’s kind of this echo in the back of my mind around this. I’m coaching a guy, that is just killing it but is just feeling so, like he’s just failing. And it was one of the weirdest things for me because everything was winning. everything was winning. And he just was living in this self-deprecating place constantly. So I got really curious about matters of ego. Like, what happens that either over-inflates somebody’s sense of self-importance or undervalues it? Like, where does that come from? And so the founder of our firm, Brad Spencer turned me on to a book. The title of the book is Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am? And probably, in my eyes, one of the coolest parts about the story of this book, and it’s early in the chapter, in the introduction, the author said he was on a plane having a conversation with somebody, and it comes up that he’s gonna write a book. He’s not an author normally. he’s technically a Jesuit priest. And he’s writing this book. And the passenger says, “What’s the title of the book?” And he says, “It’s called Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am?” And the passenger says, “Oh, do you want me to tell you?” And the author said, “No, that’s the name of the book.” And he said, “No, I know, but do you want me to tell you?” And he said, “Sure.” And he said his response was, “It’s because it’s all I’ve got.” If I’m not enough in your eyes and I have put my worth in you believing I’m enough, what happens to me if you don’t think I’m enough anymore? I just crumble. So you and I have talked about this idea of how many people in your life, how many people listening can truly, authentically say, “I know I’m enough. I can stand in front of a mirror and feel confident. I can walk in front of a room and feel complete grace with who I am.” “I can stand somewhere and say, ‘I have no idea how the heck to score tennis because that still makes no sense to me. I don’t have any idea how the hell to do that.’” You and I have had this conversation. I don’t know sports at all. I.

Chris Stemp   00:28:20

That’s fair.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:21

I pretty much at all.

Chris Stemp   00:28:21

I wouldn’t get a call. Yeah, live here.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:23

Yeah, correct. And so as like.

Chris Stemp   00:28:24

But it’s 15:30.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:25

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:28:25

Okay, I can tell you how it goes.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:27

Any, right? And so, like, as a gent, it’s not uncommon to be among other gents. Sports come up.

Chris Stemp   00:28:33

Oh.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:33

If my self-worth was tied to knowing sports, like, I’d be a mess.

Chris Stemp   00:28:37

That’s true. I’ve never seen you be self-conscious of that.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:40

No, ’cause I don’t know. I have no problem saying I don’t know that.

Chris Stemp   00:28:43

You don’t care.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:44

I don’t know. I don’t know.

Chris Stemp   00:28:44

That’s true.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:44

I could turn a wrench on a car. I could build a building.

Chris Stemp   00:28:46

A lot of manly things. Okay.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:47

There’s a lot of things I could swing an ax.

Chris Stemp   00:28:49

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:49

But I don’t know anything about sports.

Chris Stemp   00:28:50

Fair.

Shaun Dyke   00:28:51

So having to find yourself in a spot where you know where your worth comes from. Insecure overachieving is a place where your capability outpaces your identity. You don’t have confidence in who you are. I heard a line recently that I loved. I’ve used it multiple times with clients ’cause I think it’s so resonant. It is that for insecure overachievers, one of the things I want them to do is I want them to upgrade their internal narrative to align with their external impact, because they continue to believe that the impact they’re having isn’t enough. So the internal narrative of self is compromised all the time.

Chris Stemp   00:29:49

I wanna, I wanna pause on this because it took me a second there to recognize this. It’s. If you’re having a lot of impact, right? And define a lot of impact however you want. Do you often enough recognize it, internalize it, and use that narrative to fulfill yourself to an extent? Or- Do you have the impact and find the ways in which it’s not enough, you didn’t get the kudos for it? Is that.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:20

100%.

Chris Stemp   00:30:21

And the reason I think this matters is because many listening will probably align with this, it not only feels worse, right? When y.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:31

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:30:31

When you’re questioning that, it again lowers your ability to have impact.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:36

You show up worse.

Chris Stemp   00:30:37

That’s exactly.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:38

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:30:39

If you don’t recognize it and you question it, then you do less. You play smaller. You are more, you know.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:45

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:30:45

Tiptoeing around what you want to accomplish.

Shaun Dyke   00:30:47

I can’t help but think about, there’s this moment, it’s a couple years ago with one of our colleagues. We’re at an off-site event. This gentleman comes up and. It’s just relevant, so I’ll share it. You can edit it out if we don’t like it. he’s like.

Chris Stemp   00:31:03

He’s my favorite.

Shaun Dyke   00:31:04

He’s like a big dude. He’s like a, like a. He’s a. He’s like. He’s not a small man. I’m a slight guy. And so, like, this dude comes up and he’s a pretty big guy. He’s got a deep voice. He’s pretty. But he’s meek as he’s interacting with me. And he was like, “Hey, yeah. Hey, Shaun. I don’t, I don’t know if you remember me, but, like, 3 years ago, you, like, were chatting at this certain situation, and you were giving this keynote on this topic, and you said this thing, and that’s become a mantra in my household. And my kids could repeat that because it’s something core and fundamental to, like, how we raise our kids and what we do.” And I said, “That’s incredible. Thanks,” and walked away. And I turned and looked at our colleague, and they just had this sort of shit-eating grin at me, and they said, “Did you hear that?” And I was like, “Yeah. No, I know.” And they were like, “No. Did you hear that?”

Chris Stemp   00:31:52

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:31:52

“Will you let it land on the real impact that you’re having and believe in self? When does that happen?”

Chris Stemp   00:32:02

So we’re gonna move into solution orientation in a minute. And for those who identify as insecure overachiever and they’ve walked through here, we’ve given them some drips, and you just gave one right there, which is the idea of in order to fill that hole to an extent, we have to let it land when people give us positive feedback.

Shaun Dyke   00:32:23

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:32:23

We have to hear the impact we have. We have to be willing to take, you know, positive comments our way. And there is an exercise that taught me this really bluntly, almost in a scary way.

Shaun Dyke   00:32:37

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:32:37

I did it as a participant in a workshop, and it’s called And Furthermore.

Shaun Dyke   00:32:41

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:32:41

Would you be willing to give a quick synopsis of what And Furthermore is? More importantly, why do we do it, and what is the impact?

Shaun Dyke   00:32:50

Yeah. Okay, so let’s start with the frequency with which we walk around with an empty bucket. So if we use Tom Rath’s book, great book called How Full Is Your Bucket? There’s a phenomenal one for kids. If you don’t know this, it is called How Full Is Your Bucket? My kids have read this. They know it. They read it. It’s amazing. And the general concept behind it is well, behind any of these states is that we have psychological needs. And when we get those needs met, we are better able to feel satisfied and to act in service of others and lead and do all of the incredible things that we need to do. So.

Chris Stemp   00:33:23

By the way, if you’re interested in psychological needs, we alluded to it in a previous episode, but make sure you subscribe or whatever to the podcast was we will be having.

Shaun Dyke   00:33:32

Yes.

Chris Stemp   00:33:32

A full episode on this.

Shaun Dyke   00:33:34

Yes.

Chris Stemp   00:33:34

Continue.

Shaun Dyke   00:33:35

So in one of the workshops we run, what we constantly talk about is we walk around in states of insecurity, states of distress, states of insecure overachiever, oftentimes informed by our view of self. So sometimes it’s easier to think your way into behaving. Other times it’s easier to behave your way into thinking. So there is a behavior we ask people to do in this workshop that is designed to move them toward thinking this way. And it sounds so simple, and it is always so hard. My 1st time doing it was really hard. It literally just sounds like this. At the end of the workshop, we ask people, “If someone here did something over these last few days that you appreciated, they shared something that allowed you to connect more effectively they listened in a moment, they sat with you at dinner, whatever that thing was, and you want to say thank you to them, we ask you to.” Now, that part’s easy. People are relatively good at throwing out comments all the time or compliments. So let’s say the person says like, “Hey, Chris, I just wanted to say I appreciate the willingness that you have to kind of walk through some of your stories because it really helped me anchor my experiences on that framework. It was really useful.” Now, the common thing people do is they go, “Thanks. I really appreciated what you did,” and they just lob it right back at them.

Chris Stemp   00:35:03

Give the compliment back. Yep.

Shaun Dyke   00:35:04

So it does 2 things. Number one, you don’t let it land, so you don’t feel it. Number two, which is probably the most powerful for me as a harmonizer Again, those thoughts are on earlier episodes it discounts the other person. So if you come to me.

Chris Stemp   00:35:21

Yeah.

Shaun Dyke   00:35:21

And you give me a compliment, and I go, “Yeah,” and then I just give you one, you just put thought into it. Or one of the worst ones is if people say, “It was nothing.” They actually are asking you. They authentically care and are asking you about it, or they’re giving you that compliment. Okay, so they give the compliment. Your job is to say, “Thank you,” and furthermore. It’s something that I thoughtfully work on. I really try to intentionally create a space where people can work through their own experiences through my vulnerability. So we ask you to let it land. When people do this, it is a stumble. It is awkward. It is hard. So we’re constantly in a spot where accolade, acknowledgement, psychological need is being given, but we discount it. We deflect it, a lot of times because we think of our worthiness issues. We just don’t feel like it’s there. So when we do this- What we’re trying to do is we’re trying to install a behavior, as awkward or as uncomfortable it may be, that creates a space for you to start letting your impact land, upgrading your internal narrative with your external impact. And people want to give you this all the time. The vast majority of the time, we just don’t let it land. So can we, as an insecure overachiever, start believing what people tell us, start hearing it, and shift into a secure overachiever? I’m not gonna ask you to stop grinding. I know there’s a self-worth piece that’s tied into that. But can you do that through a lens of confidence, security, knowing what you’re bringing and the value that you have, not from a place of insecurity and dissatisfaction?

Chris Stemp   00:37:10

And I wanna bring it home with what you just said. Why this specific activity and many of the things for anyone who labels themself an insecure overachiever to think about? It’s because a lot of it is looking to feel secure in who they are, not just secure in their ability to achieve. We said this on an earlier episode. It’s one of my favorite quotes, right? “Confidence is determined by the memories you choose to remember.”

Shaun Dyke   00:37:38

Yep.

Chris Stemp   00:37:39

If you do a lot of things successfully but don’t inventory them, it’s hard to use them to build confidence.

Shaun Dyke   00:37:47

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:37:47

Right?

Shaun Dyke   00:37:48

1000 percent.

Chris Stemp   00:37:48

So people can be doing things and still feel insecure because they don’t inventory it. So ultimately, the goal here is the goal of many of the things we discuss.

Shaun Dyke   00:37:59

Yeah.

Chris Stemp   00:37:59

Which is self-examination.

Shaun Dyke   00:38:01

Yep.

Chris Stemp   00:38:01

I mean, right? We have to be willing to ask, “Where do I fall on this? Does this hinder me? Do I have this? Does Do I not?” And then that must come before being able to do something about it, right?

Shaun Dyke   00:38:14

All growth starts with self-awareness.

Chris Stemp   00:38:16

Yes.

Shaun Dyke   00:38:16

Increase self-awareness to understand that some of what might be driving my behavior is actually felt levels of insecurity and misattribution of my worth.

Chris Stemp   00:38:24

Exactly.

Shaun Dyke   00:38:25

So how do I take stock of that, take inventory of that, and systematically start working through the value that I bring, the worth that I bring, the self-worth that I have through a healthy vantage point so that I can more effectively lead and serve those that have been willing to be guided by me and those that I love?

Chris Stemp   00:38:43

It’s a journey that we’ll continue to take here and wanna help others go through. So thanks for bringing it, Shaun.

Shaun Dyke   00:38:49

You bet, bud. Talk soon.

Chris Stemp   00:38:50

All right. See ya.